Vipers revisted

[bb2j3z]

Mon Valley Thunder has also been approached with a similar "offer" of complete control by Black Bear and will be next to probably fall. 

 

[sadday4hockey]

At some point, doesn't it become a violation of anti-trust laws? Not that any politicians anywhere would give two shits since it doesn't help or hinder them to line their own pockets but what an f'd up situation. NHAHA if I'm not mistaken is one of if not the longest existing local organization.

And of course you knew the cockroaches would survive, they always have.

[bb2j3z]

Honestly if I was on the NHAHA board, I would be consulting with legal representation asap to see if I have a legal case against Black Bear.   Possibly the lawyer that took on RMU when they dropped their D1 hockey program... Jeffrey Kessler.

[surecat069]

Mon valley and rostraver is a done deal. Already appointed a director of hockey ops and organization has been signed over, just not officially announced. there was not much of a choice for Mon valley , as the deal was sign with blackbear exclusively or find another rink. What choice was did they actually have? In this case it probably will be better for a dying organization.  

[hockeyisgreat]

Does any of this really surprise us!  We all knew it was coming.  At the end of the day Black Bear is a business,  They bought rinks improved them and now are running the programs.  They were smart to get the Huskies at their weakest point,  I feel bad for NHAHA but they were vulnerable this year as their program and number of teams was way down.  In the end isn't it most important that the kids in that area have a place to play and the rink stays open?

[AMR24]

4 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Does any of this really surprise us!  We all knew it was coming.  At the end of the day Black Bear is a business,  They bought rinks improved them and now are running the programs.  They were smart to get the Huskies at their weakest point,  I feel bad for NHAHA but they were vulnerable this year as their program and number of teams was way down.  In the end isn't it most important that the kids in that area have a place to play and the rink stays open?

But at what cost? I honestly believe they will take the teams out of PAHL and place them in their league which means much more travel. Single A teams don’t want to travel out to Philly every other weekend to play. In the end, 1 of 2 things will happen: those players move onto a new rink and numbers drop more or those players hang up the skates permanently. I just don’t see them having the monopoly on Western PA youth hockey as a good thing….by having the monopoly, you take away choice, you force ppl into all 1 direction, and smother out the little guys. 

[AMR24]

12 hours ago, forbin said:

So Vipers/Stars will no longer have a home? 

Unless NHAHA signs everything over to them and give them full control, Vipers and Viper Stars will not have ice at PIA. But Esmark will be offered ice slots.

[RJUSHL]

17 minutes ago, AMR24 said:

But at what cost? I honestly believe they will take the teams out of PAHL and place them in their league which means much more travel. Single A teams don’t want to travel out to Philly every other weekend to play. 

We're not far away from an AHF "west" division. As Black Bear starts gathering teams for this new division, travel won't be as bad. Plus, the AHF plays an unbalanced schedule that factors in travel.

But you're right, at first the travel will be ridiculous, but once the "west" division is built out (will happen fast) the travel will be much lest.

PAHL will be on life support this time next year.

[hockeyisgreat]

13 minutes ago, AMR24 said:

But at what cost? I honestly believe they will take the teams out of PAHL and place them in their league which means much more travel. Single A teams don’t want to travel out to Philly every other weekend to play. In the end, 1 of 2 things will happen: those players move onto a new rink and numbers drop more or those players hang up the skates permanently. I just don’t see them having the monopoly on Western PA youth hockey as a good thing….by having the monopoly, you take away choice, you force ppl into all 1 direction, and smother out the little guys. 

They could potentially have 4 programs in Western Pa to start to form their own WPA league competing with PAHL.  Maybe some other organizations will like it better than PAHL and join their league.  Not all competition is a bad thing.

[hockeyisgreat]

13 minutes ago, AMR24 said:

Unless NHAHA signs everything over to them and give them full control, Vipers and Viper Stars will not have ice at PIA. But Esmark will be offered ice slots.

And what exactly does that mean? As you have seen what does NHAHA have that they want?  They have the Huskies to take the kids that want to play at PIA. They unfortunately don't need NHAHA.

[AMR24]

16 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

We're not far away from an AHF "west" division. As Black Bear starts gathering teams for this new division, travel won't be as bad. Plus, the AHF plays an unbalanced schedule that factors in travel.

But you're right, at first the travel will be ridiculous, but once the "west" division is built out (will happen fast) the travel will be much lest.

PAHL will be on life support this time next year.

What is an unbalanced schedule? I asked 1 of their reps at the rink and they didn’t know either. 

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

Can someone help me out here? I'm a little confused with the organization.

NHAHA is the Huskies?

Viper Stars/Vipers are not part of NHAHA?

Esmark is the old Pittsburgh Stars/Steel City Stars, who I thought merged with Eastern and/or NHAHA?

Or did Eastern (Pittsburgh Tigers) merge with the Amateur Penguins to become what is now the Ice Renegades and Vengance?

[AMR24]

17 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

They could potentially have 4 programs in Western Pa to start to form their own WPA league competing with PAHL.  Maybe some other organizations will like it better than PAHL and join their league.  Not all competition is a bad thing.

You are correct, competition isn’t a bad thing. But the way the competition is being created rubs the wrong way. I’m not from the business sector, so this hostile like take over is all new to me. I’m a social worker, we operate on a different mentality. Lol. To me, stomping on anything in your way to get your desired outcome isn’t creating competition, it’s leveling the market and making it bend to your will. If Black Bear continues, PAHL will be non-existent in less than 5 years. 

[AMR24]

3 minutes ago, Spear and Magic Helmet said:

Can someone help me out here? I'm a little confused with the organization.

NHAHA is the Huskies?

Viper Stars/Vipers are not part of NHAHA?

Esmark is the old Pittsburgh Stars/Steel City Stars, who I thought merged with Eastern and/or NHAHA?

Or did Eastern (Pittsburgh Tigers) merge with the Amateur Penguins to become what is now the Ice Renegades and Vengance?

NHAHA is the organization of the Pittsburgh Vipers, Pittsburgh Viper Stars and Esmark. How Esmark became part of NHAHA and who they were prior, I am not sure.

Huskies are their own organization. Huskies and NHAHA just happened to share the same home rink at PIA. They are not affiliated.

[Jack Handey]

How does a for-profit company take over a non-profit charter?  Seems like a big conflict of interest.

[Jack Handey]

This is another reason that competing youth orgs should not operate under the same roof.  Renegades beware.

[bb2j3z]

Huskies only fielded one 07 team this season.   Now boom they are fielding 8u to 18u teams next upcoming season exclusively at Pittsburgh Ice Arena owned by the same company.   

> How does a for-profit company take over a non-profit charter?  Seems like a big conflict of interest.

Well PAHL is moving to allow for profit organizations to participate.   Perfect timing right?

https://www.blackbearsportsgroup.com/teams.html

Site updated to include 3 PAHL teams under Black Bear.

Edited December 29, 2022 by bb2j3z

[Saucey]

39 minutes ago, AMR24 said:

You are correct, competition isn’t a bad thing. But the way the competition is being created rubs the wrong way. I’m not from the business sector, so this hostile like take over is all new to me. I’m a social worker, we operate on a different mentality. Lol. To me, stomping on anything in your way to get your desired outcome isn’t creating competition, it’s leveling the market and making it bend to your will. If Black Bear continues, PAHL will be non-existent in less than 5 years. 

Already in the works. I heard BB has been contacting PAHL organizations looking for teams to join their league.

[RJUSHL]

11 minutes ago, bb2j3z said:

Huskies only fielded one 07 team this season.   Now boom they are fielding 8u to 18u teams next upcoming season exclusively at Pittsburgh Ice Arena owned by the same company.   

> How does a for-profit company take over a non-profit charter?  Seems like a big conflict of interest.

Well PAHL is moving to allow for profit organizations to participate.   Perfect timing right?

https://www.blackbearsportsgroup.com/teams.html

Site updated to include 3 PAHL teams under Black Bear.

Interesting.

I believe you've posted before about your involvement with the Rats to Rebellion rebrand (well done on that btw), so it sounds like you are involved in that organization.

How is South Pitt Rebellion responding to these changes? What does the future at that organization look like? Is a second sheet coming? Will the organization move to the AHF?

Edited December 29, 2022 by RJUSHL

[bb2j3z]

Sorry cannot comment on ongoing negotiations, but we are willing to work with Black Bear and planning out the next season and beyond.  A second sheet is not announced yet, but in the works.  We are doing well and plan to continue to participate in PAHL and support youth hockey in the community.  Some independent teams may play in AHF... currently it's just the 14u Girls team in AHGF.  

[AMR24]

1 hour ago, bb2j3z said:

Sorry cannot comment on ongoing negotiations, but we are willing to work with Black Bear and planning out the next season and beyond.  A second sheet is not announced yet, but in the works.  We are doing well and plan to continue to participate in PAHL and support youth hockey in the community.  Some independent teams may play in AHF... currently it's just the 14u Girls team in AHGF.  

Just a word of caution: NHAHA was willing to work with them as well. There were several meetings and proposals that were discussed trying to come up with a good working solution. In the middle of those negotiations, they cut the cord on us.
 

I do hope you all are able to make it work and find a balance. Maybe it could be a model for future rinks they take over. Please just keep your eyes open as Black Bear is very fickle. 

[Clonbur]

16 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

Can someone explain this drama to the rest of us? 

Please read my previous post many months ago.  The writing was on the wall.  The Viper Board is toxic and drove many away from Pittsburgh Ice.  It only makes sense for Pittsburgh Ice to partner with a program that promotes hockey in a positive light.

[sadday4hockey]

3 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

We're not far away from an AHF "west" division. As Black Bear starts gathering teams for this new division, travel won't be as bad. Plus, the AHF plays an unbalanced schedule that factors in travel.

But you're right, at first the travel will be ridiculous, but once the "west" division is built out (will happen fast) the travel will be much lest.

You almost appear to have a quietly vested interest in this AHF takeover.

Competition is good, but monopolies are not.

Just the way the PPE arrival made the sport far more cut throat and created crazier parents so too will this at the Tier 2 level.

 

[AMR24]

Just now, Clonbur said:

Please read my previous post many months ago.  The writing was on the wall.  The Viper Board is toxic and drove many away from Pittsburgh Ice.  It only makes sense for Pittsburgh Ice to partner with a program that promotes hockey in a positive light.

Yawn. Here we go.

We know…you hate the board. Let’s move on.

I’m not sure if what BB is doing will end up promoting hockey in a positive light. I sat in a couple meetings with them, their concern isn’t hockey or growing the sport. It’s how much money will they make. They are turning non profit organizations into for profit…in youth sports. I can’t see how this will have a positive affect on hockey.

[Clonbur]

15 minutes ago, sadday4hockey said:

You almost appear to have a quietly vested interest in this AHF takeover.

Competition is good, but monopolies are not.

Just the way the PPE arrival made the sport far more cut throat and created crazier parents so too will this at the Tier 2 level.

 

I don't think much will change.  Every rink in W. PA is currently privately owned and "for profit".  All current tournaments are "for profit".  I would imagine that they would want to get as many kids playing the sport as possible.  There are many more opportunities for them to make it more affordable for kids to play.  I don't see how prices would raise to the point that it would deter kids from playing the sport.  It's obvious that this has not happened in the Philly Market.

 

 

 

Tier 2 and 3 will always be competitive regardless.