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Is the Esmark 08 coach a clown or is it the whole organization?


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I heard that a kid who tried out for Esmark's 08 team was posted on the tryout page as having made the team. In the mean time, this family patiently waited for an email from the organization for more information. After not hearing anything more, and multiple attempts to contact Esmark which went completely ignored, a third party got a hold of the coach and asked what was going on. The coach's response was that the kid didn't really make the team, but there was no way this coach was going to contact the family and tell them that. 

I don't know if this boy made the team, and after tryouts were done another kid was available so they went that route, or if reading and writing a correct tryout number on the evaluation form was too difficult for somebody to figure out, or what happened there. But I think it's pretty unprofessional- not to mention pretty rotten- to let a 14 year-old kid look forward to being on a team he wanted to play for and passing up some other opportunities he could have had just because somebody had no balls to simply call this family back to say there was a mistake or whatever the case was. Does anyone know if this is a first-year coach or something? I mean if he can't figure out how to handle a phone call or a simple email, or is too afraid to talk to a kid's mom or dad about a situation that he might have felt slightly uncomfortable about... I wonder if he's capable to coach a AAA hockey team and handle all that comes with that? 

 

Edited by nemesis8679
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  • nemesis8679 changed the title to Is the Esmark 08 coach a clown or is it the whole organization?
2 hours ago, PUCKCOVID19 said:

whole organization 

That's a shame, considering they're supposedly one of the so-called top organizations in the Pittsburgh area. 

I think I also remember something like last season, I don't remember what age group, they took tryout checks only to announce they wouldn't have a team at that age after all. If either of these things happened to me or my kid, I'd be furious. Seems like they could use some organization and professionalism. Sounds like they couldn't care less, though. 

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2 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

That's a shame, considering they're supposedly one of the so-called top organizations in the Pittsburgh area. 

I think I also remember something like last season, I don't remember what age group, they took tryout checks only to announce they wouldn't have a team at that age after all. If either of these things happened to me or my kid, I'd be furious. Seems like they could use some organization and professionalism. Sounds like they couldn't care less, though. 

TOP? there isnt really a TOP organization.They all have a few goods seeds and bad seeds. And yes they pulled that last year with the 2006 BY. Now magically the  used car salesman convinced enough parents that their children are the next best thing since sliced bread.....

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5 hours ago, PUCKCOVID19 said:

TOP? there isnt really a TOP organization.They all have a few goods seeds and bad seeds. And yes they pulled that last year with the 2006 BY. Now magically the  used car salesman convinced enough parents that their children are the next best thing since sliced bread.....

I have no real opinion on Esmark. I always thought he was straight with parents on the talent level of their kid, though. His outfit will fold a team if it is not AAA and the parents don't want to proceed. Which is almost every year. 😄 So to me, that is completely the parents driving that boat. He will take the team and proceed if parents want, however. It's one reason I am not overly critical as I feel like there is straight talk there. 

Maybe it's different at the 16u level?

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They only folded it last year because it wasn't his team. This year, he was not going to be denied and that team will only be as good as whatever imports he can bring in. The local nucleus is......... well, not good.

As far as honesty? No way, he'll sell an AMajor family on playing if he can get the fee and only then will be honest about their actual talent while they sit the bench for an entire season or until they quit.

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2 minutes ago, dazedandconfused said:

..only then will be honest about their actual talent while they sit the bench for an entire season or until they quit.

That is my big beef with these programs. Even some AA teams will do this. Yes, A player, come sit the bench with us ...

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If you take them, you should actually believe you can and be committed to developing them over the course of a whole season. Otherwise, cut them loose even though mama will never be able to accept it. Playing as a Top Dog is usually a much better path for development than being completely over-matched.

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4 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

If you take them, you should actually believe you can and be committed to developing them over the course of a whole season. Otherwise, cut them loose even though mama will never be able to accept it. Playing as a Top Dog is usually a much better path for development than being completely over-matched.

How it should be but they take the forth liners to pay the bills and people are dumb enough to do it thinking their player will develop better riding the pine and practicing with that team.  

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On 4/24/2022 at 6:42 PM, Carl Racki said:

How it should be but they take the forth liners to pay the bills and people are dumb enough to do it thinking their player will develop better riding the pine and practicing with that team.  

This brings up a good point that a majority of parents in WPA just aren’t knowledgeable. Mostly not their fault, but makes them extremely vulnerable and fomo and some ego are often to blame.  Caveat Emptor. 

Edited by BeaverFalls
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1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said:

So what is the best route?  Just play PAHL closest to home at whatever level you are placed?  Take some lessons from a reputable source and have fun!

I would say so. If you are still good enough to get to D1, Major Junior, or pro, that will be obvious somewhere along the line no matter where you play. 

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8 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

So what is the best route?  Just play PAHL closest to home at whatever level you are placed?  Take some lessons from a reputable source and have fun!

I’m sure people won’t agree with me, but I’ve seen more development come from quality camps, lessons and training than arbitrarily playing on the next higher A team. Obviously there’s a point where you don’t want to be playing way below one’s skill level, but saving that extra 2-10k per year and investing it into the aforementioned will get the best bang for the Buck. 

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On 4/30/2022 at 8:30 PM, BeaverFalls said:

I’m sure people won’t agree with me, but I’ve seen more development come from quality camps, lessons and training than arbitrarily playing on the next higher A team. Obviously there’s a point where you don’t want to be playing way below one’s skill level, but saving that extra 2-10k per year and investing it into the aforementioned will get the best bang for the Buck. 

BeaverFalls, you made 2 very good points.  Yes, the biggest issue right now is the lack of parental education which leads them to believe whatever they are told, and thus the arms race to be on the team with the most A's while not knowing where their player really is in the pecking order of players.  If coach X tells them that Billy has a future these parents blindly follow it.  Also, yes camps and lessons are key but eventually the skill level you are playing with and the size of the organization become key.  It's not helpful to have a player with AA/AAA skill playing on an A major roster if they are just dominating.  

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On 4/23/2022 at 11:29 PM, PUCKCOVID19 said:

TOP? there isnt really a TOP organization.They all have a few goods seeds and bad seeds. And yes they pulled that last year with the 2006 BY. Now magically the  used car salesman convinced enough parents that their children are the next best thing since sliced bread.....

Used car salesman??? WOW…

Who is this man ? Can you send his phone number … please ?? 

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On 5/2/2022 at 9:27 AM, Corsi said:

BeaverFalls, you made 2 very good points.  Yes, the biggest issue right now is the lack of parental education which leads them to believe whatever they are told, and thus the arms race to be on the team with the most A's while not knowing where their player really is in the pecking order of players.  If coach X tells them that Billy has a future these parents blindly follow it.  Also, yes camps and lessons are key but eventually the skill level you are playing with and the size of the organization become key.  It's not helpful to have a player with AA/AAA skill playing on an A major roster if they are just dominating.  

So where do I go to find out where my kid "really is in the pecking order of players"?   Who is the reputable source in Western PA?  Or do I have to go somewhere else to get an honest assessment?

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

So where do I go to find out where my kid "really is in the pecking order of players"?   Who is the reputable source in Western PA?  Or do I have to go somewhere else to get an honest assessment?

If you are a Pittsburgh kid then you need to go somewhere else because the only kids getting pushed around here are the one's they bring in from out of town. Most if not all of the Pittsburgh kids that "made it" left town to get looked at more and develop. 

Edited by Pucks11
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

So where do I go to find out where my kid "really is in the pecking order of players"?   Who is the reputable source in Western PA?  Or do I have to go somewhere else to get an honest assessment?

if pens elite aren't ringing your phone daily to get your kid, he isnt there yet. 

if he is old enough at the end of the year take him to mid ams. 

 

Edited by rock
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4 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

So where do I go to find out where my kid "really is in the pecking order of players"?   Who is the reputable source in Western PA?  Or do I have to go somewhere else to get an honest assessment?

I would say 3 ways, one was already mentioned:

1.  Are you getting asked to come to PPE, by people affiliated with PPE?

2.  Let people from outside of Pittsburgh see the player and evaluate them.  Most of those evaluators know that if you are in Buffalo or Detroit doing a camp or an evaluation weekend, they know that you are most probably not moving there to join a team, so the evaluation would, most likely, be accurate.  

3.  Go to clinics/camps with players that are playing on "high-end" teams and see with your own eyes where your player stacks up against those other players.  

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1 minute ago, Corsi said:

I would say 3 ways, one was already mentioned:

1.  Are you getting asked to come to PPE, by people affiliated with PPE?

2.  Let people from outside of Pittsburgh see the player and evaluate them.  Most of those evaluators know that if you are in Buffalo or Detroit doing a camp or an evaluation weekend, they know that you are most probably not moving there to join a team, so the evaluation would, most likely, be accurate.  

3.  Go to clinics/camps with players that are playing on "high-end" teams and see with your own eyes where your player stacks up against those other players.  

Thanks, finally someone with some constructive comments and no negativity!

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14 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

So where do I go to find out where my kid "really is in the pecking order of players"?   Who is the reputable source in Western PA?  Or do I have to go somewhere else to get an honest assessment?

You should be able to tell, no use looking out of town if you kid is not currently one of the better players on his team, but you have to be honest and not look at him as your kid and with the rose colored glasses. We rip the faux AAA teams , but lets be honest. Looks how those teams rank at the end of the year. Is he on the 4 or 5 best team or was he on a really good AA team, if he was good, ppe would not be the only one calling on a local kid, is Vengeance, Shaha, Esmark or what ever team after him before tryout, inviting him to pre skates. Now they can be blowing hot air up your ass. It's hard, but before just moving your kid out of the area, make sure he is ready and it is worth it, also there are lots of teams that are the so called faux aaa in other towns, does it make sense to go from a team ranked 50-60 here to a team ranked the same 200 miles away. If he was truly a top kid, opportunity should present itself, but if you are close and can't crack the top team,  maybe ppe pr second team, for reasons other than talent, then maybe getting out of town is best. I think the problem most people have with ppe lately is they are cutting local kids that are as good or better than what they are bringing in or pushing the Pittsburgh kids out. This is why Cleveland now has 7 or 8 kids from Pittsburgh at the 06 level and the kid that left for BK that made the national team, that's a lot of talent to leave Pittsburgh, looks like most of them could go on to play junior or college hockey. If your kid is serious, get him in the gym, hopefully he plays or played multiple sport growing up. It's a lot of work to get to the top, make a plan, don't just think you can just hop on a top ten team from a 100th ranked team or tier 2 team, you will need to climb the ladder and put in the work.

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13 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Thanks, finally someone with some constructive comments and no negativity!

You get sarcasm because you aren't interested in the answer. How do I get my kid noticed that no one is noticing, no matter how many teams we try out for or how much money I spend or how much I put him on the ice. We say...stop. You say...how do I get him noticed? We say....if he is good someone will. You ask again, you are surprised you get the sarcasm?

Just take him to the faux AAAs. They love you all and PAHL has been ruined. Spend three times the amount of money and time for what used to be AA hockey. Or now, lower. Vengeance 07 took kids this year from NPs AA team last year that people were saying were A Major. If nothing better comes along, they will take what they can to fill rosters while you hope that will get your kid noticed.

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4 hours ago, Saucey said:

You get sarcasm because you aren't interested in the answer. How do I get my kid noticed that no one is noticing, no matter how many teams we try out for or how much money I spend or how much I put him on the ice. We say...stop. You say...how do I get him noticed? We say....if he is good someone will. You ask again, you are surprised you get the sarcasm?

Just take him to the faux AAAs. They love you all and PAHL has been ruined. Spend three times the amount of money and time for what used to be AA hockey. Or now, lower. Vengeance 07 took kids this year from NPs AA team last year that people were saying were A Major. If nothing better comes along, they will take what they can to fill rosters while you hope that will get your kid noticed.

Saucey, You went straight back to the Negativity!  Corsi had some very constructive things to say as well as Mr Freeze!  Never once did I say how do I get my kid noticed!  What I said was how do I get him evaluated by someone who is good and just doesn't want to take my money!  Not one person here has a name of someone so I guess I will just figure it out myself!  He turned down the faux AAA this year and we are going to continue to put our money into lessons. I have tried to listen and take advice from people here who have been in this a lot longer than us.  Please don't respond unless you have something positive to say!

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38 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Saucey, You went straight back to the Negativity!  Corsi had some very constructive things to say as well as Mr Freeze!  Never once did I say how do I get my kid noticed!  What I said was how do I get him evaluated by someone who is good and just doesn't want to take my money!  Not one person here has a name of someone so I guess I will just figure it out myself!  He turned down the faux AAA this year and we are going to continue to put our money into lessons. I have tried to listen and take advice from people here who have been in this a lot longer than us.  Please don't respond unless you have something positive to say!

You are very confusing hence why someone said you are trolling.

It's getting harder to advise people because the hockey landscape is changing very quickly. The level of play is decreasing in PAHL every year as people play these other things. For me, I too turn down the faux AAA option because there is no way that my family needs more. But my kids are older. When they were coming up, playing A major their first year in a level was perfectly fine for their development. But now...that has changed just in the last few years as even A Major and lower go to play independent.

If I had a young child... maybe we wouldn't play at all, quite frankly. I think at the younger levels it is still good hockey and so your choice right now is likely fine. Just keep an eye on his fun level, the crazy level of the parents and whether he gets better. Don't worry about having him evaluated and blah blah. Just those things and you will be fine. 

I am burnt out on the crazy in youth sports. I am tired of even basically good people getting so wound up in it that they lose sight of the kids. So my comments come from negativity because I am tired of experiencing negativity. Tired of the crazy. Try really hard to remember this is just a game and they are just kids.

I should change my handle to letsjustplaypuck.

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