WPA ACHA College Club Hockey

[ice is cold]

8 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

Hey, there's always the Fed league. 

Id personally like my kid to graduate and not live at home.. lol. 

[dazedandconfused]

The funny thing is......... that's a Coaches poll. And yet Danner, who has never coached, probably never played and may not have even strapped on a pair of skates in his lifetime. He knows more than them. That truly is amazing stuff.

[aaaahockey]

I wonder why ACHA doesn't participate in my hockey rankings? Genuinely curious.  NCAA teams are even listed.

[JerryTime]

1 hour ago, aaaahockey said:

I wonder why ACHA doesn't participate in my hockey rankings? Genuinely curious.  NCAA teams are even listed.

I'm not sure the reason but they do it for the other club league, AAU (formerly CHF). Wonder if ACHA likes their own methods better or if MHR decided not to allow them.

[Saucey]

8 minutes ago, JerryTime said:

I'm not sure the reason but they do it for the other club league, AAU (formerly CHF). Wonder if ACHA likes their own methods better or if MHR decided not to allow them.

I would hazard that it would be really hard to do this, considering how different all the teams operate. Scores, schedules and games aren't reliably reported anywhere, either.

[JerryTime]

20 minutes ago, Saucey said:

I would hazard that it would be really hard to do this, considering how different all the teams operate. Scores, schedules and games aren't reliably reported anywhere, either.

ACHA Division 2 uses a computer ranking system, which I'm assuming MHR is just a different version of this? Home team is responsible for entering in scoresheet info after the game.

[aaaahockey]

5 hours ago, Saucey said:

I would hazard that it would be really hard to do this, considering how different all the teams operate. Scores, schedules and games aren't reliably reported anywhere, either.

I figured if PIHL can figure it out college teams can 🤣

[Law]

6 hours ago, JerryTime said:

ACHA Division 2 uses a computer ranking system, which I'm assuming MHR is just a different version of this? Home team is responsible for entering in scoresheet info after the game.

ACHA D1 uses a computer ranking starting the end of October. 

[Danner27]

On 10/11/2023 at 3:39 PM, hockeyisgreat said:

So where does the "All knowing Danner"  Rank Pitt?   Since I'm sure you have seen the 13 teams ahead of them and 11 below them play!  Just curious!

I’ve seen Pitt play duqesne, I watched both Adrian games. Liberty is always on espn plus. I’ve watched the streams for Ohio, Arizona State, Mary, Lawrence Tech, Minot along with m2 & m3 games. I have seen a ton of club hockey the past 4 years or so due to my boys watching - watching some of their friends, me seeing how kids are doing that played with my boys, families we got to know etc. some of these streams are very well done, almost cable broadcast quality. Personally I’d say Pitt is a 30 team in M1. Lose thier best player and they drop. 1st Adrian game Pitt had 5 power plays but only managed 10 shots the entire game (zero goals). Pitt has that 14 due to their new leauge. I bagged on pitt for the move, I was wrong. Someone in charge saw the rapid decline of the chma coming. @Pa Hockey is correct - after those top 8-10 teams M1 changes drastically. you have a tier that’s good from 10-30. then everyone else looks the same with a few usual suspects filling out the bottom (3 chma teams are always down there). M2 & M3 are pretty much identical. Each has their top few teams and bottom bad teams. There is a good amount of cross over play between the two. That national champ M3 hope team would beat every chma team without a problem. I don’t know the criteria that makes a team m2 vs m3 (or m1 for that matter) for whatever reason western pa school’s & some eastern Ohio are just m1 & m3. If I recall correctly the first club team’s in western pa were M3. Pitt played in the M3 CHE? Someone around here has to be older than me or know the answer around here.
I’ve seen kids that got a little time in the nahl end up on m3 teams due to the school they decided to attend. 

To put the acha in complete perspective - UNLV got beat down 12-1 something of that sort a year or two ago by a small ncaa d1 program, Alaska Fairbanks. I think that was on espn or espn plus when I watched it. If it wasn’t for the unlv goalie it would have been worse. Alaska dressed 5 lines for the game. Their bottom players & normal scratches got a lot of icetime. The main thing I remember was how bad NCAA d1 skaters made the top ACHA skaters look. The difference was very noticeable. Now that I recall this, I am wondering if it was Arizona, I’m going to stick to unlv, Arizona also played a small or new ncaa d1 team at one point. please don’t point to LIU that was an oddity for various reasons. 
 

The ACHA is beer leauge with a great social media presence. Pick a school for the school, not hockey. It’s not ment as a knock, just the truth. If these young men still enjoy playing, keeps them out of trouble, gives them more to enjoy in college, a path to make more friends -  I am all for it. This is why club hockey was created. It wasn’t created to be marketed & attract kids to a school.

so what about NCAA D3? Well, like the acha, after the top 8-10 teams it takes a hard turn, it turns into acha hockey but It’s a marketing machine for kids and parents that want to say they play NCAA hockey. I could mention one name here most everyone would know playing NCAA D3, everyone would chuckle because they probabaly have forgotten the loaded with cash family name. 75% of these schools you wouldn’t spend the cost on for college if it wasn’t for hockey. We know a good amount of kids playing ncaa d3 hockey. none of them would make those elite 8-10 acha teams. Most of them wouldn’t be the top 2 lines at Pitt. 
 

as for rankings - I thought a few years back the ACHA did use MHR. Currently they use their own computer rankings for M1,2 & 3. I feel like I remember some chatter about them leaving MHR, folks were not happy, maybe I am wrong. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Danner27

[hockeyisgreat]

Danner, seems that you do know your ACHA hockey. And for that matter the entire after Midgets College hockey scene.  Thanks for the analysis.  I do hope you are a little wrong because it is nice to see a SWPA team in the top 20.  I'm still watching PIHL and PAHL games and have not seen an ACHA or D-3 game in a long, long time.  I'm just really glad there are some options for local kids to play hockey after PIHL and PAHL.  I feel like you just want to give us all a dose of reality!  Which is a good thing, so we can see the next level with eyes wide open!

[sarampage]

7 hours ago, Danner27 said:

To put the acha in complete perspective - UNLV got beat down 12-1 something of that sort a year or two ago by a small ncaa d1 program, Alaska Fairbanks. I think that was on espn or espn plus when I watched it. If it wasn’t for the unlv goalie it would have been worse. Alaska dressed 5 lines for the game. Their bottom players & normal scratches got a lot of icetime. The main thing I remember was how bad NCAA d1 skaters made the top ACHA skaters look. The difference was very noticeable. Now that I recall this, I am wondering if it was Arizona, I’m going to stick to unlv, Arizona also played a small or new ncaa d1 team at one point. please don’t point to LIU that was an oddity for various reasons. 

A few years ago, before Lindenwood went NCAA D1, their ACHA team played Denver and lost 9-1.  Denver played their scrubs and outshot them 58-14.

https://denverpioneers.com/news/2021/10/2/du-pioneers-hockey-defeats-lindenwood-in-exhibition.aspx

This season, Minot State gets a shot at Colorado College and Denver on 12/29 and 12/30.

https://msubeavers.com/news/2023/3/1/mens-hockey-minot-state-hockey-to-clash-with-ncaa-national-champion-denver-pioneers.aspx

[Danner27]

I’m just trying to be honest. I made a lot of hockey mistakes with my kids, mainly my oldest. You live and learn. I’m not happy my Alma is having so many issues. College is some of the best years to be young.   

Edited October 13, 2023 by Danner27

[Danner27]

6 minutes ago, sarampage said:

A few years ago, before Lindenwood went NCAA D1, their ACHA team played Denver and lost 9-1.  Denver played their scrubs and outshot them 58-14.

https://denverpioneers.com/news/2021/10/2/du-pioneers-hockey-defeats-lindenwood-in-exhibition.aspx

This season, Minot State gets a shot at Colorado College and Denver on 12/29 and 12/30.

https://msubeavers.com/news/2023/3/1/mens-hockey-minot-state-hockey-to-clash-with-ncaa-national-champion-denver-pioneers.aspx

 Lindenwood was THE powerhouse acha team for a few years. Fun fact - there were a lot of complaints on a old mid west message board about the program. I bet it’s still around to be googled. Lindenwood was doing some “walk the line” type things the other teams in the leauge got bent about because their schools would not allow or do the same stuff. Lindenwood was getting players decent acedmic money just to play hockey, recruiting like a NCAA program, perks etc. come to think of it, I wonder if this was the start of the acha marketing machine? The timeline is there. 
 

thanks for the links! I’ll look forward to watching the minot game. 

[Pa Hockey]

10 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

I’m just trying to be honest. I made a lot of hockey mistakes with my kids, mainly my oldest. You live and learn. I’m not happy my Alma is having so many issues. College are some of the best years to be young.   

IUP is always on the fringe socially because it like Slippery Rock is an affordable State school with a multitude of social issues. Our family looked at Pitt, Ohio, RMU and others and my question was were we going to put our family and son into debt for many years. The solution was get an undergraduate degree + MBA from SRU and IUP  , which thanks to a smart kid who applied himself is paying off.  The Hockey was a bonus and those adult league teams are filled with kids from  Pitt, Ohio, RMU and others. 

[Danner27]

28 minutes ago, Pa Hockey said:

IUP is always on the fringe socially because it like Slippery Rock is an affordable State school with a multitude of social issues. Our family looked at Pitt, Ohio, RMU and others and my question was were we going to put our family and son into debt for many years. The solution was get an undergraduate degree + MBA from SRU and IUP  , which thanks to a smart kid who applied himself is paying off.  The Hockey was a bonus and those adult league teams are filled with kids from  Pitt, Ohio, RMU and others. 

I do know many parents that are putting themselves into high debt to send their kids to college out of state just to play hockey (they will say it’s not for hockey 🙄)

 Very valid points you make above.
 

Is a marketing, criminology, business, sports management, education, accounting  etc degree any different - get your kid a batter job - from minot, adrain, Mary, ohio u, etc vs local colleges? The answer is 99.9% NO. It’s just going to cost the student & family twice as much money - debt for most folks. PSU, Ohio State, etc - a little different. The name can help, not because the education, it’s because the alum is huge & everywhere. 
 

when I had to hire folks back in the day - where they went to school was something I never payed much attention to. What made me choose the people I did for jobs was how they presented & communicated during the interview. These young folks are fresh out of school, they are still learning on the job, even engineers I’ve hired in the past. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Danner27

[Pa Hockey]

16 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

I do know many parents that are putting themselves into high debt to send their kids to college out of state just to play hockey (they will say it’s not for hockey 🙄)

 Very valid points you make above.
 

Is a marketing, criminology, business, sports management, education, accounting  etc degree any different - get your kid a batter job - from minot, adrain, Mary, ohio u, etc vs local colleges? More than likely not. It’s just going to cost the student & family twice as much money - debt for most folks. 

Danner - We're on the same page ................After the kid lit it up at SRU (sports Mgt and Finance) ..........calls came from USHL + NAHL + Pitt + Ohio + NCAA D III after SRU abandon the hockey program

and he chose ...............IUP Eberly Business College MBA .............I'm loven it now!

Edited October 13, 2023 by Pa Hockey

[Saucey]

Club hockey is weird because the schools seem to set the criteria for what makes M2, M3 etc.RMU told us the levels there really have to do with commitment after the one team. So if you don't want to practice much per week, maybe you look at the last team. Your skill might not mean much between those levels. My boy was told he could play any level there he wanted to, depending on how much time he wanted to devote. And for RMU....there is reason club hockey was not touched when they cut the D1 program. Those teams do attract kids and tuition. Some of those schools, hockey is a draw for people and the school uses hockey as an attraction.

Everything Danner said is right on, except in the last few years, it has become harder to make a club team at a big school, which is so disappointing. (And all the more reason not to be chasing around these faux AAA teams, etc) Frustrating that spots are taken up by older players who had the money to pay to play for those Tier III Jr teams. And the pandemic caused a bottle neck. The schools my boy got admitted to, some with fantastic hockey programs and who recruited him heavily.... academically did not have what he wanted to study or were ..not very good schools. Or located in a really bad area like IUP. And like Danner said, at the end of the day, they aren't getting a degree in hockey. The area of study, the school itself, finances, fit for kid... should come ahead of the hockey. If you get the hockey, treat it as a bonus.

It all ends at some point. Soon they will be terrorizing us old farts still trying to play. 

[sarampage]

Club hockey is all over the place.  As Saucy said, teams are.much more difficult to make and depending on the school, commitment levels can be very high.  I know some very good players that have been cut at some larger school ACHA teams.  Sometimes it tough to compete with 21-22 year old freshman with more maturity and experience. 

My son was contacted by several ACHA teams from M1 to M3, in addition to some Tier II/III Junior scouts.  He ended up at Pitt with a very difficult major and decided he didn't want to commit to hockey.  Playing Juniors was not an option since playing NCAA was never a goal.  He just wanted to get on with life...

Can't remember if this has been posted before, but I came across.this article from June about club hockey.  Pretty interesting....

https://www.neutralzone.net/mens/2023/06/21/get-to-know-non-ncaa-club-college-hockey/

 

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

14 hours ago, Danner27 said:

Pitt played in the M3 CHE? Someone around here has to be older than me or know the answer around here.

Back in the late 90s/early 2000s, there was an ACHA M2 conference called the University Hockey League.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Hockey_League

 

IUP's first team and Pitt were mainstays in the UHL, the rest of the membership fluctuated. Both Pitt and IUP were in the WPCHA, which preceded CHE. I believe that just about all of the teams in the area were in the WPCHA/CHE at some point in their history. Around 2006 Pitt and IUP moved up to M1 and the UHL folded. By then, just about everyone in Pittsburgh was either M1 or M3, so it kind of made sense. RMU, W&J, and SRU had jumped to M1 from M3 a few years before that, and WVU, Duquesne, and Mercyhurst had been M1 for years.

I haven't followed the ACHA for a while. However, back in the 2000s/2010s, the difference between M1 and M3 was more the level of commitment by the teams to things like game times, amount of practice, length of the season, etc. Maybe you could it professionalism and just generally how the program was run. The M1 teams were/are generally more stable, and had a lot of non-students running the show, while the M3 teams were often at least partially student run. The talent was definitely better on average in PGH M1 teams vs M3. However, there were plenty of good players on M3 teams and Cal circa 2006-09 in particular sticks out in my mind as a team that was better than most of the CHMA.

[Saucey]

19 hours ago, sarampage said:

He ended up at Pitt with a very difficult major and decided he didn't want to commit to hockey.  

Yes, this too! The school needs to meet 'the broken leg test'. If something should happen to your player and they can't play or decide that they don't want to, are they going to be happy at the school.

Congratulations to your son.

[dazedandconfused]

On 10/13/2023 at 9:59 AM, Pa Hockey said:

calls came from USHL + NAHL + Pitt + Ohio + NCAA D III after SRU abandon the hockey program

 

[dazedandconfused]

So......... we are to believe that teams from the USHL, which markets itself to the younger players based simply on requiring X number of 1st year players on rosters with a minimum number of GP for those players and......... limits the number of 20 year olds, these teams wanted to bring in a player who was already playing at a low level ACHA school?

And I'm not saying it's low level I'm just using yours and Danner's knowledge.

[Danner27]

2 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

So......... we are to believe that teams from the USHL, which markets itself to the younger players based simply on requiring X number of 1st year players on rosters with a minimum number of GP for those players and......... limits the number of 20 year olds, these teams wanted to bring in a player who was already playing at a low level ACHA school?

And I'm not saying it's low level I'm just using yours and Danner's knowledge.

Yes odd. I think his son lead or was top 5 in acha scoring at some point but he would have been aged out. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Danner27

[Danner27]

19 hours ago, Spear and Magic Helmet said:

Back in the late 90s/early 2000s, there was an ACHA M2 conference called the University Hockey League.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Hockey_League

 

IUP's first team and Pitt were mainstays in the UHL, the rest of the membership fluctuated. Both Pitt and IUP were in the WPCHA, which preceded CHE. I believe that just about all of the teams in the area were in the WPCHA/CHE at some point in their history. Around 2006 Pitt and IUP moved up to M1 and the UHL folded. By then, just about everyone in Pittsburgh was either M1 or M3, so it kind of made sense. RMU, W&J, and SRU had jumped to M1 from M3 a few years before that, and WVU, Duquesne, and Mercyhurst had been M1 for years.

I haven't followed the ACHA for a while. However, back in the 2000s/2010s, the difference between M1 and M3 was more the level of commitment by the teams to things like game times, amount of practice, length of the season, etc. Maybe you could it professionalism and just generally how the program was run. The M1 teams were/are generally more stable, and had a lot of non-students running the show, while the M3 teams were often at least partially student run. The talent was definitely better on average in PGH M1 teams vs M3. However, there were plenty of good players on M3 teams and Cal circa 2006-09 in particular sticks out in my mind as a team that was better than most of the CHMA.

Thank you.
Fun fact - W&J chancellor was said to be a huge supporter of hockey. He wanted to build W&J into one of the powerhouse type acha programs that were starting to come up. The school didn’t go for it. He left, ended up Adrian and build the acha program.  Hope I got that correct, don’t remeber if I read that somewhere or someone told me about it. I think it was verified on this board at some point over the years. 

[Pa Hockey]

1 hour ago, Danner27 said:

Yes odd. I think his son lead or was top 5 in acha scoring at some point but he would have been aged out. 

He was only 19 at the time because he started college like Normal People do after graduating HS and not as a 21 or 22 yo 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Pa Hockey