Montour Hockey

[Baleout21]

6 minutes ago, Pucks11 said:

The answer is NO to all 4 questions. They listed the kid as a Montour resident like he has lived there his entire life.

Are you positive?? Or just assuming??? 

You have seen their paperwork??

Edited February 27, 2023 by Baleout21
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[Pucks11]

11 minutes ago, Baleout21 said:

Are you positive?? Or just assuming??? 

You have seen their paperwork??

If it wasn't then we wouldn't be where we are right now. All they had to do last week was show the transfer paperwork and all they had was that he lives in the district. They filed the wrong paperwork and now they got caught for the 3rd time this season lying on paperwork.

 

Their argument in the paperwork they filed to sue is claiming they had a verbal conversation with the now passed away representative of PIHL and that it should stand because he supposedly said yes to them.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Pucks11

[Baleout21]

6 minutes ago, Pucks11 said:

If it wasn't then we wouldn't be where we are right now. All they had to do last week was show the transfer paperwork and all they had was that he lives in the district. They filed the wrong paperwork and now they got caught for the 3rd time this season lying on paperwork.

 

Their argument in the paperwork they filed to sue is claiming they had a verbal conversation with the now passed away representative of PIHL and that it should stand because he supposedly said yes to them.

So the answer to two of my three questions is no. And you are assuming .. based on your redirection. 

[zam]

Honestly this reminds me of a situation a few years ago at work. I had a good relationship with a guy we did numerous projects together. There was a financial discrepancy/honest mistake on a job we were working on. We had made a verbal agreement to square it up with a different job. Unfortunately before that occurred he tragically died. We didn't document it and he didn't tell his partner. So I was out a decent sum of money. I didn't bother to go to court because it wasn't documented and I would have been laughed out of the room, Especially if my "evidence" amounted to a text message that said "hey Joe give me a call in the morning we'll talk about that discrepancy." 

[Lifelongbender]

16 hours ago, Flavio said:

These attorneys are very reputable. They aren’t taking this unless they have strong evidence against. Case could be expedited depending on other verbiage. This is going to get interesting for sure. 

Just my $0.02, but they may very well be filing a lawsuit simply to try to intimidate PIHL into changing their stance. They may not, in fact, believe that they have much of a case at all, but merely hope that the threat will make PIHL flinch. That's a very common strategy in many common situations, and it's even done by reputable attorneys. One reason to think this might be true is the simple fact that's been mentioned elsewhere here - they're not likely to get a hearing before the issue is already in the past.

Also, Montour almost has to be getting this representation pro bono. It can't be worth the cost for representation in an actual lawsuit.

[Theroadtobeerleague]

11 hours ago, Pucks11 said:

How many times do you have to be told that Montour never filed the proper paperwork. Yes the kid was approved to play as a resident of Montour who wasn't a billet or transfer student. They lied from the beginning.

 

PIHL goes over all the paperwork AGAIN at the end of the season just to make sure everything is in order and it wasn't.

THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT DETAIL THAT NO ONE SEEMS TO BE TAKING INTO ACCOUNT.  PLEASE READ…

 

This is 100% true.  Each team must submit a NEW roster before the start of playoffs.  If he was mistakenly allowed to play throughout the season, that paperwork (approved by the PIHL) cannot be challenged or changed.  BUT after the regular season ends, the roster has to be signed off again by the league for the playoffs.  This is why the argument “Avonworth held this in their back pocket” is somewhat misleading.  Maybe they knew about it but couldn’t do anything until/unless they saw that Montour was trying to include him in playoff roster (signed off by each school’s AD or Principal). By the way, that roster does not contain any place to list addresses of the players. It simply has the names, grade level, and school of each player and a spot for a signature “Playoff Roster Sign Off”.  Many many times in high school sports have there been teams ruled ineligible for playoffs for using an ineligible player throughout a regular season. 
 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Theroadtobeerleague
Added media

[Theroadtobeerleague]

2 hours ago, LGP13 said:

Yes, but what would be PIHL's angle? What or why could they possibly want to screw Montour out of playing in the playoffs? They really have no reason to DQ Montour unless they believe that the rules of their organization that all these teams play in weren't followed, and the only reason they would do that is to protect the other teams/kids that play in their organization from getting cheated somehow.

 

All this said I do feel bad for the kids at Montour. Adults ruining it for kids... Apparently, they have a strong team. Would they still have to of had to move up a division to AA if all the paperwork was correct and the kid was approved to play? Curious how they would have done playing all season up a division if they had to. If they wouldn't have had to and could have stayed at A with the kid on the team and the only issue here is the paperwork that wasn't properly done... then wow. Really feel bad for the kids.

With 8 seniors and 5 juniors and a AAA goalie, for sure would have been placed in AA. 

[hockeyisgreat]

This will have to be brought before a Judge today to try to change anything! Those in the know please share with us if anything happens today with a temporary injunction!  Sure would hate to see the whole A playoffs be put on hold because of this but I could see it happening.  I'm also quite surprised it hasn't hit the local news!  If it gets to court I bet it will!

[surecat069]

35 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

Just my $0.02, but they may very well be filing a lawsuit simply to try to intimidate PIHL into changing their stance. They may not, in fact, believe that they have much of a case at all, but merely hope that the threat will make PIHL flinch. That's a very common strategy in many common situations, and it's even done by reputable attorneys. One reason to think this might be true is the simple fact that's been mentioned elsewhere here - they're not likely to get a hearing before the issue is already in the past.

Also, Montour almost has to be getting this representation pro bono. It can't be worth the cost for representation in an actual lawsuit.

And whom from PIHL is paying for all of this ( court fees, attorney retainer, ect) - the rest of the PIHL Member organizations, thats who - 

unless a judgement contains the cost of those fees, which it very well might , but that is so far away - that money being spent now via PIHL will be passed on this upcoming year to everyone else. 

If this goes on and on - it's doubful it will even be settled before the start of next year's season with court dates and appeals, ect. 

So thanks to the Adults there at Mountour for helping raise everyones rates, just that much more for the 2023-2024 PIHL Season - 

 

 

[Stackthepads]

2 minutes ago, surecat069 said:

And whom from PIHL is paying for all of this ( court fees, attorney retainer, ect) - the rest of the PIHL Member organizations, thats who - 

unless a judgement contains the cost of those fees, which it very well might , but that is so far away - that money being spent now via PIHL will be passed on this upcoming year to everyone else. 

If this goes on and on - it's doubful it will even be settled before the start of next year's season with court dates and appeals, ect. 

So thanks to the Adults there at Mountour for helping raise everyones rates, just that much more for the 2023-2024 PIHL Season - 

 

 

Don’t worry, all of montour’s bogus season fines will more than cover the cost.  Put those car wash fundraisers and Easter candy sales on hold- you will be fine.

[zam]

4 minutes ago, Stackthepads said:

Don’t worry, all of montour’s bogus season fines will more than cover the cost.  Put those car wash fundraisers and Easter candy sales on hold- you will be fine.

Go read the evidence, piihl waved that $2,500 fee that would have gone along with the forfeitures. 

[Ynot02]

5 minutes ago, zam said:

Go read the evidence, piihl waved that $2,500 fee that would have gone along with the forfeitures. 

“Thanks for waiving the fines PIHL. We’ll now use it to sue you…”

[Stackthepads]

4 hours ago, zam said:

Go read the evidence, piihl waved that $2,500 fee that would have gone along with the forfeitures. 

I’m not as invested as you.  I do enough crap reading on this forum.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Paul Baxter
profanity

[zam]

14 minutes ago, Ynot02 said:

“Thanks for waiving the fines PIHL. We’ll now use it to sue you…”

 

[PeterThePuck]

PIHL 1A playoffs start this week don’t see lawsuit having any legs

[hockeyisgreat]

1 minute ago, PeterThePuck said:

PIHL 1A playoffs start this week don’t see lawsuit having any legs

Why would they waste their time filing it then?  The only way it makes sense is if they can get a temporary injunction today to hold up the playoffs or get included. I'm sure the Attorneys who filed it planned on that!  Otherwise it is a waste of time that I don't see a prominent law firm wanting to get involved with!  Am I missing something?  I've seen other PIAA sports have this happen and a judge rule before the championships. More individual sports!

[Icebucket]

As much as I feel bad for the Montour players who were put in a bad spot by their coach/board, isn't it 10x worse to stop the playoffs and make all the kids from every team pay for it? Surely the Montour supporters here(who claim to not be parents) would feel terrible for all those kids from the 11 other schools missing out right?

[carroll81]

On 2/21/2023 at 4:19 PM, PeterThePuck said:

If this was PIAA wouldn’t be allowed 

Don’t know the rules but kid coming in and billet for Hockey play your club not allowed to play High School.

In state of Minnesota where high school hockey is king they are strict about zip codes with jumping in and out to play.

 

 

Peter, took a quick look at PIAA.  If this kid was a freshman, it looks like he would be eligible.  It is a bit murky, because it doesn't specify that the middle/junior high needs to be within district, but doesn't rule that out.  It's considered a Natural Break Transfer:

"Promotion from a junior high/middle school to a senior high school is considered a Transfer between schools. A student, who has made a Natural Break Transfer and who has not previously participated on a different senior high school Team in any sport, is presumptively eligible immediately for interscholastic athletics."

I realize this is not a PIAA sport, but if this were to go before a judge I would think he/she would consider how the PIAA would look at this.

[hockey57410]

21 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Why would they waste their time filing it then?  The only way it makes sense is if they can get a temporary injunction today to hold up the playoffs or get included. I'm sure the Attorneys who filed it planned on that!  Otherwise it is a waste of time that I don't see a prominent law firm wanting to get involved with!  Am I missing something?  I've seen other PIAA sports have this happen and a judge rule before the championships. More individual sports!

They’re filing it to try to get themselves off the hot seat and try to make the parents and kids think it wasn’t the boards/coach fault. 
 

its obvious they tried to skirt the rules. Sure the coach just wanted best chance to pad his resume. Obviously he didn’t care about what would happen to kids. I’m guessing he’ll walk away next year and leave it all behind while the program is in shambles and embarrassed. 

[Stackthepads]

2 minutes ago, hockey57410 said:

They’re filing it to try to get themselves off the hot seat and try to make the parents and kids think it wasn’t the boards/coach fault. 
 

its obvious they tried to skirt the rules. Sure the coach just wanted best chance to pad his resume. Obviously he didn’t care about what would happen to kids. I’m guessing he’ll walk away next year and leave it all behind while the program is in shambles and embarrassed. 

Obviously….guess his master plan to go from montour to the Montreal Canadians was foiled (insert menacing laugh).  High school hockey program in shambles lol.  Give me a break.  How ridiculous.

[surecat069]

8 minutes ago, Stackthepads said:

Obviously….guess his master plan to go from montour to the Montreal Canadians was foiled (insert menacing laugh).  High school hockey program in shambles lol.  Give me a break.  How ridiculous.

You left out "Embarrassed" - which you and the rest of your parents/board should be. . But you arent , because you can sue everyone who doesnt agree 

[hockey57410]

1 hour ago, Stackthepads said:

Obviously….guess his master plan to go from montour to the Montreal Canadians was foiled (insert menacing laugh).  High school hockey program in shambles lol.  Give me a break.  How ridiculous.

JV a parents take over board and 1st they First  drives off coach who won Pens cup, 2nd they get blown out last season, 3rd they get suspended from playoffs for ineligible player. Think they’re be more Humble now. 

[Loach]

Just chiming in to say I feel bad for the Montour seniors. But I skimmed through that court filing and don’t see how they win. All they have is an email reply from the prez who says he has someone for them to talk to? I’m no lawyer but that doesn’t seem enough to count this as an exception to the rule.

[Lifelongbender]

7 minutes ago, Loach said:

Just chiming in to say I feel bad for the Montour seniors. But I skimmed through that court filing and don’t see how they win. All they have is an email reply from the prez who says he has someone for them to talk to? I’m no lawyer but that doesn’t seem enough to count this as an exception to the rule.

Let me say first of all that in my view Montour shouldn't win. However long the kid has been playing, there is a clear violation of league rules here, and Montour's manager would've attended the training where this is covered quite extensively.

Having said that, much depends upon how the court eventually views the question of whether the player is a transfer or not. It seems clear that the spirit of the league rules is that this player should be considered a transfer, but the rules aren't as clearly written as you'd like them to be, and now a court will be deciding whether the (in my view) silly argument that he was never in high school so this isn't a transfer is a good argument or not. And then going forward the rules will mean whatever the judge ends up saying they mean on this issue. If the court buys that argument, Montour will win because the entire premise of determining that the player was ineligible will be null.

[Stackthepads]

8 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

Let me say first of all that in my view Montour shouldn't win. However long the kid has been playing, there is a clear violation of league rules here, and Montour's manager would've attended the training where this is covered quite extensively.

Having said that, much depends upon how the court eventually views the question of whether the player is a transfer or not. It seems clear that the spirit of the league rules is that this player should be considered a transfer, but the rules aren't as clearly written as you'd like them to be, and now a court will be deciding whether the (in my view) silly argument that he was never in high school so this isn't a transfer is a good argument or not. And then going forward the rules will mean whatever the judge ends up saying they mean on this issue. If the court buys that argument, Montour will win because the entire premise of determining that the player was ineligible will be null.

Here’s a thought:  Perhaps the manager volunteered late to the game because there was nobody else willing to do it.  Perhaps the manger has a real job or some circumstance that prevented them from attending the “training”.  Perhaps they didn’t want to miss the new episode of Law and Order.  Perhaps they thought to themselves “it’s only high school hockey”.  I don’t freakin know.  All I know is that people are quick to blame others for everything and thinking everyone has a hidden agenda.  That’s why we have a shortage of VOLUNTEERS at all levels.  Who wants to put up with this?  We get it- you are all perfect people, never making mistakes, documenting everything, and always quick to place the blame.