09 vengeance?

[Tendymom]

20 hours ago, bender05 said:

didn’t one make pens?

He did...didn't expect to see him at tryouts so that was a bit of a suprise...

Edited April 17, 2023 by Tendymom

[bender05]

1 hour ago, Carl Racki said:

Well said.  I think the 2009 Pens picked up four really good players from the 09 Vengeance and will be a better team.  I think the 09 Vengeance lost a lot of their top players but may retain some of their  players that tried out for Pens and got cut so guessing they will drop off a decent amount.  Esmark seems as though they lost a lot of their better players so that team will drop quite a bit if they even end up fielding a team.  The Preds seem like they are getting the most new players which will be an upgrade from their bottom players so they will get a little better.  Same with the 09 SHAHA team.  

In reality the rankings for these teams are a joke.  There is not much difference between the Vengeance 09 who were ranked 40ish and SHAHA 09 who was ranked 90ish.  If you look at the rankings math it is about a goal or goal and a half difference.  That is really nothing in my mind.  If fact toe 09 SHAHA beat the 09 Vengeance in a scrimmage late in this season.  It showed up briefly on MHR then disappeared.  My point is all these teams are very close in talent.  They all have some AAA players but not an entire team.  I think a lot of the movement is people tired of driving an hour to play on a team that would be similar 20 minutes away.  Its like a team ranked 300 vs 400.  It's 100 spots but probably a goal difference.  People get to caught up in the rankings. 90 and 40 are very close and depending on the day and goaltending  it will be a good game   Look at the Preds 09 team.  I guess people flocking there because they were the highest ranked but they lost to Esmark 09 and have a loosing record.  If you only play highly ranked teams it is EASY to hang in and look good!  Pens do it best.  Why do you think they won't play many games local or teams 30-60.  Worried about the rankings and looking good for prospects 

Esmark-preds-Shaha all are similar even though rankings were off. Esmark beat preds twice in close scores-Shaha 09 lost by one goal to esmark-Shaha 09 beat 09 vengeance.  Cost to play each one is different too because esmark usually requires 2-3 plane ride trips at this age 

[Icebucket]

With PPE taking a handful of Vengeance players, it has to make you wonder if PPE got a bit of a wake up call at mid ams.

Recently they have been filling out the bottom half of their teams with out of town players who are no better than the local players they were passing on. All it's really done is made it easier for other teams to close the gap and knock them off with those same local players they passed on.

At 14s and 16s, PPE lost out to vengeance and barons who were both loaded with PPE cuts.

[YardSale]

3 minutes ago, Icebucket said:

With PPE taking a handful of Vengeance players, it has to make you wonder if PPE got a bit of a wake up call at mid ams.

Recently they have been filling out the bottom half of their teams with out of town players who are no better than the local players they were passing on. All it's really done is made it easier for other teams to close the gap and knock them off with those same local players they passed on.

At 14s and 16s, PPE lost out to vengeance and barons who were both loaded with PPE cuts.

That thought crossed my mind when I heard they took the V players.  I’m thrilled that it happened, was just a bit surprised.

[Carl Racki]

1 minute ago, Icebucket said:

With PPE taking a handful of Vengeance players, it has to make you wonder if PPE got a bit of a wake up call at mid ams.

Recently they have been filling out the bottom half of their teams with out of town players who are no better than the local players they were passing on. All it's really done is made it easier for other teams to close the gap and knock them off with those same local players they passed on.

At 14s and 16s, PPE lost out to vengeance and barons who were both loaded with PPE cuts.

I disagree.  Recently, it seems more like the bottom half of Pens guys get tired of paying a ton of money and being stuck in 3rd and forth line rolls not getting much ice time.  They move on to other teams and play pp, pk,... and get more opportunity.  Even the out of town guys get tired of it and leave after a year or two.  It is a real problem they have right now.  I would say less cutting and more leaving.

[bender05]

8 minutes ago, Icebucket said:

With PPE taking a handful of Vengeance players, it has to make you wonder if PPE got a bit of a wake up call at mid ams.

Recently they have been filling out the bottom half of their teams with out of town players who are no better than the local players they were passing on. All it's really done is made it easier for other teams to close the gap and knock them off with those same local players they passed on.

At 14s and 16s, PPE lost out to vengeance and barons who were both loaded with PPE cuts.

And this may be another fear of why esmark tryout numbers were low since usually at 14, 15, 16+ there are players that come from overseas and cut local kids and sometimes the skill level isn’t that much different too. Some people just don’t bother even trying there at older ages 

Edited April 17, 2023 by bender05

[RJUSHL]

2 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

There is not much difference between the Vengeance 09 who were ranked 40ish and SHAHA 09 who was ranked 90ish.  If you look at the rankings math it is about a goal or goal and a half difference.  That is really nothing in my mind. 

40 to 90 is about three goals expected difference according to the all-knowing MHR formula. (Sarcasm about the very flawed MHR system.) But even if it was a one goal expected difference, the bigger issue is the tournament invites you don't get when you are ranked 90 and the ones you do get when you are ranked 40. I think the Vengeance had this issue this past season. They drop in rankings and get uninvited. But a team in 90 won't even have that invite in the first place. Difference between 90 and 40 is huge in this way. I'll still be very surprised if Vengeance end up lower than Preds, SHAHA, etc.

Edited April 17, 2023 by RJUSHL

[Carl Racki]

1 hour ago, RJUSHL said:

40 to 90 is about three goals expected difference according to the all-knowing MHR formula. (Sarcasm about the very flawed MHR system.) But even if it was a one goal expected difference, the bigger issue is the tournament invites you don't get when you are ranked 90 and the ones you do get when you are ranked 40. I think the Vengeance had this issue this past season. They drop in rankings and get uninvited. But a team in 90 won't even have that invite in the first place. Difference between 90 and 40 is huge in this way. I'll still be very surprised if Vengeance end up lower than Preds, SHAHA, etc.

Yeah, guessing Vengeance will be lower in the rankings next season.   I would guess a lot of these teams will all be close (probably within that goal or two range).  I agree you want to be in the top 30 maybe 40 but once you leave that range not really a AAA roster. Again you may have some AAA players but not a team full.  Just tough because not many AAA options in the area other than Pens which is insanely expensive.  Very sad and why the sport has trouble gaining popularity.  Everyone talked about the 2006 SHAHA , 2007 SHAHA, .... but look at what happen once some of their top players leave. Now look at the 2008 and 2009 Vengeance teams falling apart.  Just a shame as people put in a lot of work so they could have been an option over Pens.  As much as people may not like Pens, it seems to be the only local organization that fields teams in the top 30 at most, if not all ages.  Sadly, you almost have to leave town still if not on the top two lines at Pens once you hit 2nd year bantam.

[hockey55]

Should be interesting to hear how many show up at vengeance tonight and how many show up at the esmark supp 

[Hky05]

2 hours ago, hockey55 said:

Should be interesting to hear how many show up at vengeance tonight and how many show up at the esmark supp 

hearing about 25 skaters and 2 goalies at vengeance-current goalie hurt 

[RJUSHL]

How many at the Esmark supplemental?

Edited April 18, 2023 by RJUSHL

[nemesis8679]

7 hours ago, Icebucket said:

With PPE taking a handful of Vengeance players, it has to make you wonder if PPE got a bit of a wake up call at mid ams.

Recently they have been filling out the bottom half of their teams with out of town players who are no better than the local players they were passing on. All it's really done is made it easier for other teams to close the gap and knock them off with those same local players they passed on.

At 14s and 16s, PPE lost out to vengeance and barons who were both loaded with PPE cuts.

Do you think they take all the out of the area kids partly to create the perception that their org is so amazing, people come from miles around to join it? 

[zam]

9 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

Do you think they take all the out of the area kids partly to create the perception that their org is so amazing, people come from miles around to join it? 

The "perception the organization is amazing" comes from MOST of their teams being MOSTLY in the top 10, and MOSTLY within striking distance for a national championship every year.  They are one of about a dozen organizations like that in the nation. They play in highly selective tournaments and in a league with similarly successful organizations.  

Because of that, out of town kids that want to play at the highest level and be seen by scouts travel to play for PPE.  So of course little Johnny Ringer from Sacramento comes here and steals a spot from a decent player from Pittsburgh. On the contrary, nobody is coming very far to play for Preds, SHAHA, Vengeance etc. So inevitably the best players from those teams move on to better teams as well. It's the competitive food chain, eat or be eaten. The pens could make a team of the 20 best Pittsburgh area kids each year, and they would be moderately successful. (Probably something like the Cleveland Barons) But the top players would always be leaving.

We don't have to like how they do things, but that's the way Pens choose to run their organization.  This is what makes PIHL somewhat interesting and why everyone made a big deal about the billeting rules. School teams can't just cut and recruit new players each year. And players can't jump from team to team every year. There's atleast some competitive balance and reliance on development and building a program.

[YardSale]

11 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

How many at the Esmark supplemental?

From my understanding just a few more.  I believe there were also a few of the Esmark selections at Vengeance so that could get interesting.  
 

*second hand information, I was not at either.

[hockey07]

11 minutes ago, YardSale said:

From my understanding just a few more.  I believe there were also a few of the Esmark selections at Vengeance so that could get interesting.  
 

*second hand information, I was not at either.

apparently one esmark kid from renegades declined his spot 

[RJUSHL]

2 hours ago, hockey07 said:

apparently one esmark kid from renegades declined his spot 

Does seem like Esmark initially took quite a few of AA kids. I wonder if they are now second guessing the jump and may stick with their AA team? Honestly we need more of that. Teams have lot to compete for in AA; PAHL, AHF (for Badgers and Rebellion), potentially Tier II Nationals. Something to be said for that. That's way more appealing than some of these independent AAA schedules with all these two game sets against random teams in Ohio and Buffalo.

Edited April 18, 2023 by RJUSHL

[Hky05]

not sure if true or not but supposedly Dallas stars aaa 09 goalie trying out at vengeance??

[RJUSHL]

1 hour ago, Hky05 said:

not sure if true or not but supposedly Dallas stars aaa 09 goalie trying out at vengeance??

So was the talk of their demise greatly exaggerated? Last week people were saying they had like four kids going to tryouts. It's funny how quickly signups happen after Pens make their roster.

[sadday4hockey]

Esmark may have actually folded their hand at 09.

[RJUSHL]

2 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

Esmark may have actually folded their hand at 09.

Didn’t they have supplementals last night? Are you saying they may not have an 09 team?

[nemesis8679]

9 hours ago, zam said:

The "perception the 

Because of that, out of town kids that want to play at the highest level and be seen by scouts travel to play for PPE.  So of course little Johnny Ringer from Sacramento comes here and steals a spot from a decent player from Pittsburgh. On the contrary, nobody is coming very far to play for Preds, SHAHA, Vengeance etc. So inevitably the best players from those teams move on to better teams as well. It's the competitive food chain, eat or be eaten. The pens could make a team of the 20 best Pittsburgh area kids each year, and they would be moderately successful. (Probably something like the Cleveland Barons) But the top players would always be leaving.

So we could agree that they must not be great at developing their own kids from younger age groups? 

[YardSale]

2 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

Esmark may have actually folded their hand at 09.

Did you hear something or are you guessing that is the case?

[RJUSHL]

With Preds 09 AAA and SHAHA 09 AAA improving and making changes, will be interesting to see if Esmark tries to come in and scoop up their cuts. If so it will be the definition of AA team. Getting the kids who really should be in AA anyways. The other option is for them to pack it in for a year, not field a team, and regroup with a better plan next time around.

I know Esmark advertised practicing in New Ken and Southpointe, but Esmark never even really took the time to explain how that will look. Parents rightfully have questions about that so why not be specific and detailed? And then it comes out that Esmark (across the entire organization) would just have one single ice slot per week at Printscape. So it's really just PIA & Printscape in name only and PIA for 95% of practices and games. Bad job by Esmark being specific and explaining how that would work.

I'm sure other things went into basically their entire 09 AAA team leaving.

Bottom line: Have a plan way ahead of time, be detailed about that plan, communicate that plan, and then tactfully sew up your top kids and get their feedback and thoughts about a month before tryouts. Yes it's a lot of work, but it's not complicated.

A lot of organizations are dismal communicators and I never even have an avenue/method for gathering feedback in order to improve.

Someone said it early in this thread and I think it's true: If you're not getting better you're getting worse.

Some 09 organizations/teams across AA and AAA seem to be getting better: Preds AAA, Rebellion AA, and North Pitt AA. One thing they have in common is they all had a plan and communicated that plan.

Preds 09 AAA announced their move to Black Bear's Tier 1 Hockey Federation. These kids now have a championship to play for and a league that is well structured. They announced this early.

Rebellion 09 AA announced a plan for the season over a month ago. They announced all four coaches (which is a crazy lineup of experience with specific coaches for forwards and defenseman), the fact that they are playing PAHL AA as well as Black Bears AHF league as a showcase team, and even announced what other specific tournaments they are playing like a CCM tournament. All this was announced and communicated early and that inspires confidence that they have it together and have a plan.

North Pitt 09 AA announced Cliff Loya as their coach early on in the process. That is a good get as far as a coach and I'm sure that helped them get the interest they are getting, although I'm not sure if he will travel with the team. Bottom line is they seem to have a plan.

Those three examples are a lot different from the many teams that seem to be taking a step backwards. Have a solid plan and communicate that plan early and often and you will grow/improve/win as an organization or team.

Edited April 19, 2023 by RJUSHL

[Danner27]

Cliff is a good skills guy, can’t speak on his team / game coaching. He was doing something some years back with the rink rats - he ran practices but only went to home games. In general he’s a good guy, wrong place at the wrong time -  ppe needed a scape goat imo. 

[stickboy]

3 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

Bottom line: Have a plan way ahead of time, be detailed about that plan, communicate that plan, and then tactfully sew up your top kids and get their feedback and thoughts about a month before tryouts. Yes it's a lot of work, but it's not complicated.

A lot of organizations are dismal communicators and I never even have an avenue/method for gathering feedback in order to improve.

Someone said it early in this thread and I think it's true: If you're not getting better you're getting worse.
 

Couldn’t agree more! Every team coach and manager and organization directors should be doing this. If not, they are doing it wrong and failure is only a matter of time. 

I would add that you should even start earlier, say at least two months before tryouts (especially with Tier 1 teams), because recruiting is happening whether or not you think it is. 

Staff in tune with their team/program know what’s going on (people can’t help to talk and most player movement rumors end up somewhat true).  Don’t play dumb and act surprised come tryout time. Check your ego and do the things RUSHL mentioned early on and you may have a chance.

I know you can’t make everyone happy, but, it’s a shame how many local teams (even successful ones) blow up because of complacency.