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Preds birth year teams all playing independent schedule


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13 minutes ago, hockey55 said:

Exactly true. Two years ago in u10 when 09s were top of the age group-Allegheny won AA followed by State College then Mt Lebo. Preds may have changed some kids on the team but they weren’t even top 3 when 2009s were oldest for u10

And the Preds '09 have lost some kids as well. I don't understand the decision. If you blow out a AA division, then consider going independent. This group has never done that. It's not a bad team, but it's not like PAHL AA is below them. Not even close.

Edited by RJUSHL
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I think we can all agree there isn’t a really great solution that meets the needs of all the organizations and all the levels. But it is encouraging that people are thinking of some ideas that might help. 
 

Maybe part of the problem is PAHL is too cookie cutter and not tailored specific enough to each age group?  Maybe it’s vice versa. Idk. 
 

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2 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

And they've lost some kids as well. I don't understand the decision. If you blow out a AA division, then consider going independent. This group has never done that. It's not a bad team, but it's not like PAHL AA is below them. Not even close.

I guess the other part is to not take it personally they aren’t playing PAHL. Who knows what their thought process is. Maybe it’s well thought out and based on time, people, budget etc they have a clear end state goal they’re seeking with by going independent. 
 

on the flip hand it’s completely conceivable it’s a rash decision that isn’t based on the best development and fiscal responsibility. 
 

Bottom line is, PAHL has been around for a long, long time. And even if a few BY teams or even whole organizations leave, it’s not going anywhere. 

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57 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

You may be thinking of Marc Voit? I believe he's coaching the 2010 Vengeance team this year. His older son was just drafted by the Maple Leafs this summer. I've heard good things about Marc.

Yes I did not want to name names on a public forum. he’s a talented skills coach that knows the path’s beyond youth hockey. He battled PPE and won in the end. I have a lot of respect for that guy. I’ve had few fun conversations with him back in the PPE days, he always stuck around to watch the older kids. He was always willing to help out any kid that needed it regardless of their age. He ran a lot of skills sessions out of warrendale on his own dime. He was the first parent to publicly question PPE while everyone else kept their mouth shut due to fear of getting cut or pushed out. We are pulling for his son! If anyone can give the vengeance credibility & possibly turn that program around, it’s him! 

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14 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Great ideas!  Sounds to me like you need to get on the board at PAHL.  Do they need a new bunch of critical thinkers on their Board?  Too late for this year but it needs to start now for next year.  Bottom line if you don't change you get left behind!

Is there actually an election for PAHL???  I've had children in hockey for 10+ years here and literally never seen a ballot or communication directly from PAHL. 

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10 hours ago, Tendymom said:

Preds 09 played up in the 08 AA PAHL last year and indeed did get pounded....the size difference between 09 and 08 was a huge factor.  As such, they decided to go independent this year in an effort to play an 09 AAA schedule....

Seems like they should beat all the PAHL 09/AA teams before trying AAA?   This year the size difference shouldn't exist. 

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1 hour ago, Danner27 said:

Yes I did not want to name names on a public forum. he’s a talented skills coach that knows the path’s beyond youth hockey. He battled PPE and won in the end. I have a lot of respect for that guy. I’ve had few fun conversations with him back in the PPE days, he always stuck around to watch the older kids. He was always willing to help out any kid that needed it regardless of their age. He ran a lot of skills sessions out of warrendale on his own dime. He was the first parent to publicly question PPE while everyone else kept their mouth shut due to fear of getting cut or pushed out. We are pulling for his son! If anyone can give the vengeance credibility & possibly turn that program around, it’s him! 

What do you mean by "battled PPE"? 

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4 hours ago, Danner27 said:

One of my boys just pointed out to me “dad you know the parent he’s talking about” I do ? after a small conversion I do! I guess he’s not calling games anymore ? Looks like things haven’t changed much, this is his second run with vengeance. My son just told me in the past three years one of his kids went vengeance-Lebo-predators now back to the vengeance. 

he teamed up with another couple dads who went icemen, shaha, Preds, then vengeance. somethings never change

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1 hour ago, nemesis8679 said:

What do you mean by "battled PPE"? 

I thought it may have been discussed on here before, even though I know the inner workings I’m not sure it’s my place to put it all out there. The short that I feel everyone around knows (with out the 2 years of major details) he questioned the excel / nc thing publicly - Morehouse threatened to kick his kids out of the program - PPE didn’t like that he was doing “free” skills across the street to help kids - he voiced his opinion on lesser players (2003) getting showcased (it’s pretty obvious now he was correct) - Morehouse banned him from the rink so he went to the away games 😂There is a lot, in the end, he came out on top - not just his own son but others he believed in. especially an 02 PPE kicked out that is on a path to play for PSU. I could list 10 players from 02-03 birth year that he was directly involved with that are all playing real junior hockey in the ushl, ohl etc. all these kids are on a track to major ncaa d1 programs or pro. PPE used some of these kids to get a national championship for a certain group of 2003’s playing up at U16 and tossed the others because the families wouldn’t pay (or couldn’t afford) the ransom. I’m sure In another 2-3 years these kids will be on the upmc rinks wall but PPE had nothing to do with their success. Someone else did, Marc. 

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11 hours ago, hockey55 said:

Exactly true. Two years ago in u10 when 09s were top of the age group-Allegheny won AA followed by State College then Mt Lebo. Preds may have changed some kids on the team but they weren’t even top 3 when 2009s were oldest for u10

Based off of last season's rosters, most of that State College team left and played either in Pittsburgh (SHAHA BY) or for Mustangs AA out of Altoona.  I haven't heard where those kids are playing this season.  

You can have unexpected teams show up and compete at younger ages because if you have a good goalie or one or two really good players they can dominate.  As the players get older and are able to mentally play more of a structured/team game the ability of one or two players to win a game on their own goes out the window.  My guess is having younger BY teams at AA would help in developing that "structure" earlier for those kids.

The problem, again, is what do smaller organizations do that might have one or two "AAA/AA" skilled players but then a huge drop in skill/talent?  Going that route would essentially force the best players in small organizations to go to larger organizations so they can play with like skilled players or force those organizations to field "combined" teams at the AA BY levels as a way to keep the talent in-house instead of those kids going other places.

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9 minutes ago, Corsi said:

Based off of last season's rosters, most of that State College team left and played either in Pittsburgh (SHAHA BY) or for Mustangs AA out of Altoona.  I haven't heard where those kids are playing this season.  

You can have unexpected teams show up and compete at younger ages because if you have a good goalie or one or two really good players they can dominate.  As the players get older and are able to mentally play more of a structured/team game the ability of one or two players to win a game on their own goes out the window.  My guess is having younger BY teams at AA would help in developing that "structure" earlier for those kids.

The problem, again, is what do smaller organizations do that might have one or two "AAA/AA" skilled players but then a huge drop in skill/talent?  Going that route would essentially force the best players in small organizations to go to larger organizations so they can play with like skilled players or force those organizations to field "combined" teams at the AA BY levels as a way to keep the talent in-house instead of those kids going other places.

Which leaving to go to another program isn’t always feasible due to cost or travel. So idk what the best solution is. I think true parody won’t really ever be achieved across the board, and that’s sort of the business pahl tried to get into with these placements and dozens of division levels. 

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At this point I think the league would have better success focusing on making Eastern and Western divisions at the non AA level first, then worrying about parody. 
 

Nobody wants to go to Johnstown, State College or Altoona and vice versa for 4-6 hours round trip to play a 1 hour game.

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12 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

Is PAHL going to be the "get off my lawn" guy or they going to adapt to national trends that they have no control over and start offering AA birth year or AA major/minor divisions at all age groups?

BY is not a national trend.  It is only here because some dads see it in tier I, think that their kid belongs in AAA, and think they can build an AAA contender around their kid.   

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4 minutes ago, Jack Handey said:

BY is not a national trend.  It is only here because some dads see it in tier I, think that their kid belongs in AAA, and think they can build an AAA contender around their kid.   

Huh???  Look at MyHockey, every age group is divided by BY.  The current Bantam grouping has BY teams from CA to MA.  It's a given there are more teams in the "major" grouping due to mixed BY teams, but organizations fielding BY teams is more national than you are giving it credit for with this comment.  Yes, there are "AAA" and "AA" teams, but there are also "A" teams, that are classified as BY in the "minor" group.   

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13 hours ago, muckerandgrinder said:

There are approximately 8 organizations that I can see supporting BY teams. 

Hornets / N. Pitt / SHAHA / Preds / SCIR / S. Pitt /  Allegheny / Foxes

Here is 14u AA Minor from a few years ago featuring a low participation birth year.  NP and SHAHA couldn't form teams and Predators went AAA.  Armstrong and Westmoreland were not pure birth year but were close.  Does it look competitive?

TEAM                             GP W L T PTS FPP TPTS GF GA PIM
FOXES 235                       20 13 2 5 31 17 48 93 57 178
MT LEBANON 316           20 11 7 2 24 17 41 72 59 162
RENEGADES 412             20 10 4 6 26 13 39 64 48 251
WESTMORELAND 430    20 10 5 5 25 12 37 90 69 262
SOUTHPOINTE 374         20 6 10 4 16 15 31 54 56 192
ARMSTRONG 457           20 5 12 3 13 16 29 52 75 245
ALLEGHENY 297              20 2 17 1 5 12 17 43 104 230

 

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4 minutes ago, Jack Handey said:

Here is 14u AA Minor from a few years ago featuring a low participation birth year.  NP and SHAHA couldn't form teams and Predators went AAA.  Armstrong and Westmoreland were not pure birth year but were close.  Does it look competitive?

TEAM                             GP W L T PTS FPP TPTS GF GA PIM
FOXES 235                       20 13 2 5 31 17 48 93 57 178
MT LEBANON 316           20 11 7 2 24 17 41 72 59 162
RENEGADES 412             20 10 4 6 26 13 39 64 48 251
WESTMORELAND 430    20 10 5 5 25 12 37 90 69 262
SOUTHPOINTE 374         20 6 10 4 16 15 31 54 56 192
ARMSTRONG 457           20 5 12 3 13 16 29 52 75 245
ALLEGHENY 297              20 2 17 1 5 12 17 43 104 230

 

Side note- It does look like teams took a ton of penalties. 

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18 minutes ago, Jack Handey said:

BY is not a national trend.  It is only here because some dads see it in tier I, think that their kid belongs in AAA, and think they can build an AAA contender around their kid.   

You can't be serious that you don't think it's a national trend.

And you can't just tell by looking at MHR listings. Way more BY teams than are listed. Some teams don't update their names, and minor BY teams have to submit verified rosters and some other hoops.

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20 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

You can't be serious that you don't think it's a national trend.

And you can't just tell by looking at MHR listings. Way more BY teams than are listed. Some teams don't update their names, and minor BY teams have to submit verified rosters and some other hoops.

I lost count of how many Tier 2 AA U15 and U16 teams there are out there.

https://myhockeyrankings.com/rank.php?y=2021&v=112&view=alphabetic

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24 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

You can't be serious that you don't think it's a national trend.

I am serious!  The impetus for being birth year is to be compared to birth year teams in Tier I.  What you have here is a local trend of wanna-be-PPEs.   

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40 minutes ago, Corsi said:

Huh???  Look at MyHockey

Here's your MyHockey team count summarized for the last 5 years.  Tell me where the trend is.

Season Team Type 10u 12u 14u
2016-2017 Major Birth Year or Mixed 1091 1398 1254
  Minor Birth Year 214 295 334
  Minor Percent 16.4% 17.4% 21.0%
2017-2018 Major Birth Year or Mixed 1266 1539 1400
  Minor Birth Year 202 285 330
  Minor Percent 13.8% 15.6% 19.1%
2018-2019 Major Birth Year or Mixed 1370 1590 1350
  Minor Birth Year 201 308 326
  Minor Percent 12.8% 16.2% 19.5%
2019-2020 Major Birth Year or Mixed 1473 1602 1360
  Minor Birth Year 199 299 334
  Minor Percent 11.9% 15.7% 19.7%
2020-2021 Major Birth Year or Mixed 1287 1387 1250
  Minor Birth Year 185 284 327
  Minor Percent 12.6% 17.0% 20.7%
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51 minutes ago, Jack Handey said:

Here is 14u AA Minor from a few years ago featuring a low participation birth year.  NP and SHAHA couldn't form teams and Predators went AAA.  Armstrong and Westmoreland were not pure birth year but were close.  Does it look competitive?

TEAM                             GP W L T PTS FPP TPTS GF GA PIM
FOXES 235                       20 13 2 5 31 17 48 93 57 178
MT LEBANON 316           20 11 7 2 24 17 41 72 59 162
RENEGADES 412             20 10 4 6 26 13 39 64 48 251
WESTMORELAND 430    20 10 5 5 25 12 37 90 69 262
SOUTHPOINTE 374         20 6 10 4 16 15 31 54 56 192
ARMSTRONG 457           20 5 12 3 13 16 29 52 75 245
ALLEGHENY 297              20 2 17 1 5 12 17 43 104 230

 

That looks EXACTLY the way a division should look.

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1 minute ago, dazedandconfused said:
55 minutes ago, Jack Handey said:

ALLEGHENY 297              20 2 17 1 5 12 17 43 104 230

That looks EXACTLY the way a division should look.

You know if I recall correctly it was the braintrust at Allegheny that pushed for an AA Minor division.  Worked out well.

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38 minutes ago, Jack Handey said:

I am serious!  The impetus for being birth year is to be compared to birth year teams in Tier I.  What you have here is a local trend of wanna-be-PPEs.   

"A local trend of wannabe PPE's?"

You can't be serious.  And to equate AA BY teams to anything related to PPE is absolutely absurd.  Sorry, but it is.

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