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Problems during the “battle of the suck”


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53 minutes ago, ice is cold said:

So because some families prefer to pay a little extra to have coaches that hold their child responsible and give them accountability (the extra A) you feel it's making you pay more? 90% of players in AAA play because most PAHL teams have zero accountability. Practices with 10 kids, goofing off, coaches who volunteer, which I give them all the credit, but are not hockey coaches. It's all what your player wants and if people want to spend the extra money for a team who is held accountable and committed, so be it. Why again should you care? Shall everyone change their values and what they want for your wallet? And I don't know about your kid, but my kid and us love to travel. See new cities. Meet new people and friends. All things AAA gives you and PAHL does not. No different than AAU basketball, elite travel soccer teams, etc...you sound self serving and selfish. 

I award you AAA. Enjoy you time with your kids doing it how you want, not someone crying about how you are wrong. I don't care if you play independent AA, AAA or BBBB. Have fun and enjoy the memories.

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Posted (edited)

Calm down predator’s mom. FYI - the majority birth year AA teams have non parent head coaches & practice two nights a week. Your reasoning - better coaching at “AAA” is extremely far off.  Again,  It’s not real AAA anyway. 

Edited by Danner27
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Lots of very defensive AAA folks. 

If you are allowed to spend your money as you want, I am allowed to believe that these programs are not good for my pocket book, bad for community programming and predatory towards families. And I can express that opinion. As can Danner. I have interest in hearing how the tryouts go. You don't... don't read the post.

I know what they sell. I have been subjected to the sales pitches. The recruiting done directly to the child through social media accounts.  The absolute nastiness displayed when you don't want to do it. (Name calling? Disparaging the very player they claimed to want not a few seconds before? You know who engages in that kind of behavior? The con man.) Be respectful of your choice to play AAA?  Be respectful of mine not to do it.

The 'benefit' of AAA programming sold is a fallacy. You do not have to have your kid on the ice 24/7 all year long to become good players. You do not have to travel all over the country. You do not have to have paid coaches. The amount of money and time spent is not directly related to the creation of a good hockey player. You don't even need to have a fantastic coach and squad every year. Your kid can still develop.

I criticize because I feel like a parents' desire to give their kids the best and achieve their dreams is abused. I watch the chasers. I know their kid isn't going anywhere because they just aren't good enough. There is always somewhere for that child to land to continue chasing. WTF is that? You are allowed to say that is ok since it is their money, and I am allowed to say I think that is wrong.

The comment about the PAHL travel...used to be all rec was in house. But parent demand was fed. Lots of things not good for the overall development of a player change because parents don't know any better. I don't disagree that youth hockey as a whole could stand to have less travel. Why are parents traveling hours to watch kids who can barely stand in their skates? 🤷‍♂️

Such babies on this thread. Man up and take the criticism without crying. Or wait...are these tears because people aren't lining up for the crap AAA programming this season like they were? 

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Saucey, I agree with everything you say!  But what if it is not my dream but my kids dream?  I have even gone as far as to say if you want to play AAA you will have to get a job and help pay the costs!  He is willing to do it.   If he makes a AAA team he will most likely be a 4th line player!   Should I just say absolutely no?   You can't chase your dream!  I see it becoming an issue as I think he is getting closer and closer in tryouts!  

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9 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Saucey, I agree with everything you say!  But what if it is not my dream but my kids dream?  I have even gone as far as to say if you want to play AAA you will have to get a job and help pay the costs!  He is willing to do it.   If he makes a AAA team he will most likely be a 4th line player!   Should I just say absolutely no?   You can't chase your dream!  I see it becoming an issue as I think he is getting closer and closer in tryouts!  

unless every AAA team is calling you wanting your kid, your chasing if thats what you want go for it.... however,  if you know he will be a 4th liner, get ready to watch him play 5 min every game and sit the rest.. great for his skill development. go from best on team getting more minutes and puck touches, to last on the team sitting on the bench. 

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8 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Saucey, I agree with everything you say!  But what if it is not my dream but my kids dream?  I have even gone as far as to say if you want to play AAA you will have to get a job and help pay the costs!  He is willing to do it.   If he makes a AAA team he will most likely be a 4th line player!   Should I just say absolutely no?   You can't chase your dream!  I see it becoming an issue as I think he is getting closer and closer in tryouts!  

This is exactly why I am so critical of these programs. The desire to chase and profiting from it, kid or parent.

Many coaches will tell you being a fourth line player with few ice touches on a higher level team will not develop your player like playing the lower level will.

Your kid does not need to go faux to develop. I have no trouble with the word no if I don't think it is going to work.

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2 minutes ago, forbin said:

Do players develop more during games or at practice?

 

 

Why ask a question I know you know the answer to?

To never play in a game, how does that help? Why not get both practices and games? There are plenty of PAHL teams that offer both. This blanket assumption AAA programs sell, that PAHL doesn't offer enough, I challenge that. You can also...offer too much. Burn them out. Injure them. 

What kid wants to sit the bench all season?

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11 hours ago, mrfreeze said:

We could all play inhouse for $800-$1000 at our home rink and not have to travel all over

I think you know this, but for those who don't: 85% of PAHL, including AA at 12u and 10u, is classified as house/rec.  PAHL is basically a big ass house league.

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10 hours ago, ice is cold said:

So because some families prefer to pay a little extra to have coaches that hold their child responsible and give them accountability (the extra A) you feel it's making you pay more? 90% of players in AAA play because most PAHL teams have zero accountability. Practices with 10 kids, goofing off, coaches who volunteer, which I give them all the credit, but are not hockey coaches. It's all what your player wants and if people want to spend the extra money for a team who is held accountable and committed, so be it. Why again should you care? Shall everyone change their values and what they want for your wallet? And I don't know about your kid, but my kid and us love to travel. See new cities. Meet new people and friends. All things AAA gives you and PAHL does not. No different than AAU basketball, elite travel soccer teams, etc...you sound self serving and selfish.

This is such a conceited point of view. Not sure which practices you've been watching but most legit PAHL AA teams are better than Pittsburgh-area AAA teams, excluding the Pens Elite and a few one-off BYs at other organizations. It's been said countless times on this forum, but there's no reason the top AA and faux AAA teams in Pittsburgh can't play in a competitive PAHL division (20 games) and use the remaining 20-30 games on their schedules to travel for tournaments/non-league games.

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10 minutes ago, RegDunlop7 said:

This is such a conceited point of view. Not sure which practices you've been watching but most legit PAHL AA teams are better than Pittsburgh-area AAA teams, excluding the Pens Elite and a few one-off BYs at other organizations. 

Conceited, trying to justify money lost, development wasted. Keeping up with the jones’ 

your practice assessment is 100% spot on. 

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6 minutes ago, RegDunlop7 said:

This is such a conceited point of view. Not sure which practices you've been watching but most legit PAHL AA teams are better than Pittsburgh-area AAA teams, excluding the Pens Elite and a few one-off BYs at other organizations. It's been said countless times on this forum, but there's no reason the top AA and faux AAA teams in Pittsburgh can't play in a competitive PAHL division (20 games) and use the remaining 20-30 games on their schedules to travel for tournaments/non-league games.

Amen!  It will never happen though.  The number one reason why is parent /player ego.  Also, a lot of the parents / players are just uneducated or unintelligent and buy the bs that these wanna be AAA teams will develop your player better or are the next step to greatness.  Think about it, what are they developing for???  I guess men's league.  Even a lot of the wanna be AAA players in men's league are average to below average as they think they are all stars try to dangle and turn the puck over left and right.  Seen it a million times.

  Sadly, I only see things getting worse rather than better as people need the ego boost and want to say my kid plays AAA.  It almost forces players on the AA teams to join the wanna be AAA teams because there are next to no AA teams left.  All this is doing is increasing the cost to play.  Again if the team is in the top 40 I will let you claim AAA until then they are just AA.  If you really want to play at a higher level you need to be a top 6 on a team in the top 30 or Play at one of the better prep schools to get looks in my opinion.

Play, develop, and have fun.  It will end soon and if they are lucky they might be a good men's league player.

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2 hours ago, Danner27 said:

Calm down predator’s mom. FYI - the majority birth year AA teams have non parent head coaches & practice two nights a week. Your reasoning - better coaching at “AAA” is extremely far off.  Again,  It’s not real AAA anyway. 

I don't think this correct.  Renegades birth years for example is Dad's except for 05 which was a Dad until the player left for PPE.  Badgers have a non parent at 06 but before he took over it was a parent and had parents at 09, 08 and 07.  Pretty sure Foxes have some non parent at the older ages but parents at the lower ages.  Even the SHAHA/Lebo 08 team that was AAA had a parent.  

It seems as if North Pittsburgh has non parents at the older ages.    

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How long until there is a "West" division in the Atlantic Hockey Federation? https://atlantichockeyfederation.com

Lots and lots of teams. There are 21 teams in 12U AA just as an example.

PAHL AA can be pretty good hockey, but the problem is that the number of teams are limited so you end up playing the same 6-7 teams with roughly the same players year after year after year. It can feel like you're in some type of echo chamber. If you're in an A division there is so much more movement and you end up playing different teams and different clubs each year.

I just don't think there's any possible chance that Black Bear isn't already planning this. It's going to further weaken PAHL. I would guess the four organizations at Black Bear owned rinks would be the first to go. No chance Black Bear is going to leave this money on the table.

Anything appealing about AHF over PAHL?

Edited by RJUSHL
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47 minutes ago, RegDunlop7 said:

This is such a conceited point of view. Not sure which practices you've been watching but most legit PAHL AA teams are better than Pittsburgh-area AAA teams, excluding the Pens Elite and a few one-off BYs at other organizations. It's been said countless times on this forum, but there's no reason the top AA and faux AAA teams in Pittsburgh can't play in a competitive PAHL division (20 games) and use the remaining 20-30 games on their schedules to travel for tournaments/non-league games.

I'll disagree. After 2 years of PAHL my kid wanted to quit. He was at practices with 8 kids who half were goofing off, messing around in the locker room...missing games and practices to go to movies or high school football games or play playstation. He wanted something more serious. He wanted accountability to himself and his teammates. That is not every PAHL team. We found it outside of PAHL. 

If the world revolved around your thinking Walmart would be the only store in the world to keep prices down and eliminate other options. 

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1 hour ago, Jack Handey said:

Dilly Dilly

JH, I get your point, I know their is Faux AAA. In a perfect world, I am sure some of these ideas work. I think the desire to seek out better options is a bigger factor, not the AA people calling the AAA people the chasers or the AAA calling the AA people the dream killers. I have watched my kid go from through and have been part of it at many levels. I have made tough decisions that some could not understand cause it left them behind or might have had an effect on a team they or their kids were part of. Those decisions had many factors including what was best for our family or situation. I have had the pleasure of being part of many different hockey families, I watched kids go on to juniors, college, national program and pros. I've also seen kids quit, get left behind, it happens. One thing I would say I am bias to is, I don't think highly of the PAHL, I've been part of it for a long time and I did make an attempt to try to make it better and keep teams from leaving, but PAHL is controlled more by the smaller clubs and volunteers that can't make a decision to grow and evolve. Almost all decisions are driven by how it will effect those in charges program and kids.  Do we ever ask why kids leave or why these programs that go independent are growing. Why have programs like NP, RMU and PPE adm inhouse programs have grown, while the pahl ADM program seems to have stalled out., Black Bear is creating a league now, Alpha Ice has created its own league cause there seems to be a need, since others don't evolve. 10 years ago, how many independent teams did we have to now. Could PAHL have created a higher league, worked with city within 3 hours to expand and play each others top teams. The old hockey Director at UPMC started the East West classic to help this along, but once he was replaced the focused shifted with the Pens to grow local youth hockey to a national focus. My opinion is PAHL and Mid Am need some fresh blood and direction. At this point, anyone that sees the bigger picture that could drive these ideas leaves PAHL and does what is best for them and their kids instead of worrying about others. I wished I had been able to do more and my kids are almost at the end and I can say, I have enjoyed the time with my kids and people we have met along the way. My advise to anyone coming into this, would be open minded decide if you can help make the change, I did make some changes I am proud of, but I had to move on as I know true change will take time.

 

So do your homework, some programs will work better than others, watch out for snake salesman or dream killers. Hope you enjoyed your time spent at the rink, cause it will be over before you know it.

Edited by mrfreeze
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2 hours ago, Danner27 said:

Calm down predator’s mom. FYI - the majority birth year AA teams have non parent head coaches & practice two nights a week. Your reasoning - better coaching at “AAA” is extremely far off.  Again,  It’s not real AAA anyway. 

This clearly shows how no one on this board should take anything you say seriously, because you are always wrong. 

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21 minutes ago, ice is cold said:

I'll disagree. After 2 years of PAHL my kid wanted to quit. He was at practices with 8 kids who half were goofing off, messing around in the locker room...missing games and practices to go to movies or high school football games or play playstation. He wanted something more serious. He wanted accountability to himself and his teammates.

I'm sorry you had an unfortunate experience, but you're only providing one example. I'll say it again: most legit PAHL AA teams are better than Pittsburgh-area AAA teams, excluding the Pens Elite and a few one-off BYs at other organizations. If all of the top AA and faux AAA teams in Pittsburgh stayed in PAHL, it would be a very competitive league.

 

21 minutes ago, ice is cold said:

If the world revolved around your thinking Walmart would be the only store in the world to keep prices down and eliminate other options.

Not sure that your Walmart analogy applies to Western PA youth hockey lol.

Edited by RegDunlop7
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lets be honest here. unless a team is in the top 40 of tier1 hockey they ARE NOT true AAA. yes there might be a few really talented kids in that mix. BUT team skills set wise no one below 40 is really a true AAA team.

 

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2 hours ago, rock said:

unless every AAA team is calling you wanting your kid, your chasing if thats what you want go for it.... however,  if you know he will be a 4th liner, get ready to watch him play 5 min every game and sit the rest.. great for his skill development. go from best on team getting more minutes and puck touches, to last on the team sitting on the bench. 

Isn't it true that you develop more in practice than you ever would in a game?  Doesn't practicing against better level kids every day make you better?  If you are really committed shouldn't you be able to move up the lineup to get some quality minutes? When a kid is ultra competitive they will work to get better or decide it isn't worth it. No in between!

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17 minutes ago, PUCKCOVID19 said:

lets be honest here. unless a team is in the top 40 of tier1 hockey they ARE NOT true AAA. yes there might be a few really talented kids in that mix. BUT team skills set wise no one below 40 is really a true AAA team.

 

I don't think this is far off. I would say at 06, the Vengeance team would have easily beat Allegheny and SCIR the top 2 AA 06 only teams by 3, but probably much more 9 out of 10 times. They where a much bigger and stronger team then the 2 pahl teams, Preds would have probably lost to those 2 team 7 out of 10 and would have been a good AA team. Shaha beat Vengeance I think 3 or 4 times and would have also beat those teams. i think Shaha was ranked in the 30's, Vengeance in the 50's.. The 07 teams would have been a little closer. Shaha, Foxes, Allegheny all had decent teams, Vengeance would have been a good match at this level, maybe a bit lower, Iceman I think would have also fallen behind them. Esmark "which was mostly old Vengeance kids previous year" I think was better, but not by a ton. Looking at these 2 birth years you could field 6 teams. Maybe instead of lets stay in PAHL, you just form your own league with these 6 and have some showcases with Buffalo, Columbus, Philly, Cleveland. Work together. 

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This season in 18U “AAA” Mt Lebanon was considered the best of the “faux” “aaa” group correct ? They still didn’t make districts. Mt Lebanon tied the AA foxes team. Again in the end, it’s all AA hockey. In some instances such as the icemen and predators - they’ve got kids they wouldn’t make a Pahl AA team to fill out the roster & pay money.  
 

as for practice being when kids develop ? Somewhat true - a good skating & skills coach does far more for development. Games are important, you can’t simulate the decision making, seeing the ice, avoiding contact, Etc in practice. 

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