THF and AHF

[dazedandconfused]

This what you get with your AHF entry. You get to spend the Holiday weekend in beeeee-eautiful South Jersey. Not at the beach but at one of the BB rinks with lovely starting times of 7:45am and 7;00am for 14U.

And in addition you get a home and home series with a team just across the river.

https://atlantichockeyfederation.com/13u-aa/win-loss-ratio/

SMH

Take a spin around the standings of these.... "these leagues" during the season and note the "competitive balance" provided.

Those who noted the Esmark deterioration in the other were spot on.

https://www.tier1hockeyfederation.com/11u/win-loss-ratio/

 

 

[PUCKCOVID19]

On 8/30/2023 at 3:40 PM, dazedandconfused said:

This what you get with your AHF entry. You get to spend the Holiday weekend in beeeee-eautiful South Jersey. Not at the beach but at one of the BB rinks with lovely starting times of 7:45am and 7;00am for 14U.

And in addition you get a home and home series with a team just across the river.

https://atlantichockeyfederation.com/13u-aa/win-loss-ratio/

SMH

Take a spin around the standings of these.... "these leagues" during the season and note the "competitive balance" provided.

Those who noted the Esmark deterioration in the other were spot on.

https://www.tier1hockeyfederation.com/11u/win-loss-ratio/

 

 

although it is funny, only teams that matter are u16 and u18 teams and Im sure they won't do very well either  

[Stinger17]

Some random thoughts from a consumer’s standpoint:

The AHF(Big Bear) should be a wake up call for PAHL as a “service provider” and it’s member organizations.

The AHF provides stats. PAHL does not. They are generally hidden from public view and I’m not sure why. The AHF promotes their league, teams and players on social media and thru tournaments. PAHL does not. These things matter in todays hockey world. From getting a players name out there, to attracting better teams for competition and establishing league recognition on a national level. For the record I do understand that I’m talking about Tier 2. As an example most everyone knows about the CSDHL and the quality of the teams in that league year after year. Your team is going get a good game. Maybe PAHL starts to organize some showcase tournaments with other leagues??? Maybe PAHL does all star teams? Or “select” teams to compete in spring tournaments?…I think you can find most of that on the AHF page.

So much is said about growing the sport in this area. Well, PAHL and its member organizations have been running things around here for decades like a glorified traveling house league and that needs to change sooner than later. IMO the league hasn’t seen the writing on the wall but many member organizations have. The result is all of the independent teams that people on here complain about. Props to those organizations for trying to fill the expectations of what travel hockey should be.

I ask this question:

“Why are newer NHL city’s in non-traditional hockey markets developing and moving on more kids than Western PA which has had some form of pro hockey for almost 100 years?”

To my earlier point, we should be done “growing” the sport and established. High school hockey has been played here for over 50 years at some organizations. Based on a 4 year “generation” at that level we’ve had 12+ generations in that timespan. The foundation is there but the maturity is not.

Bottom line is PAHL has competition and competition is good for the consumer. PAHL can raise the bar and improve the product that they control or become a memory.

[hockeyisgreat]

Stinger, you are right on with all of this.  Hopefully the new PAHL format will change their antiquated ways.  I can't believe that they do nothing to promote the players within their league. Especially at the AA level 14U and above.  The kids that lead the league should be recognized.  They have had the information all along but choose not to show it to the public.  Not sure why!  I love the transparency of THF & AHF. Players of the week etc.  Gives the kids something to strive for.  They could have an Allstar game at the 18U, 16U and 14U.  But again they choose not to.  At least PIHL does that and makes the Stats readily accessible to all.

[nemesis8679]

14 hours ago, Stinger17 said:

Some random thoughts from a consumer’s standpoint:

The AHF(Big Bear) should be a wake up call for PAHL as a “service provider” and it’s member organizations.

The AHF provides stats. PAHL does not. They are generally hidden from public view and I’m not sure why. The AHF promotes their league, teams and players on social media and thru tournaments. PAHL does not. These things matter in todays hockey world. From getting a players name out there, to attracting better teams for competition and establishing league recognition on a national level. For the record I do understand that I’m talking about Tier 2. As an example most everyone knows about the CSDHL and the quality of the teams in that league year after year. Your team is going get a good game. Maybe PAHL starts to organize some showcase tournaments with other leagues??? Maybe PAHL does all star teams? Or “select” teams to compete in spring tournaments?…I think you can find most of that on the AHF page.

So much is said about growing the sport in this area. Well, PAHL and its member organizations have been running things around here for decades like a glorified traveling house league and that needs to change sooner than later. IMO the league hasn’t seen the writing on the wall but many member organizations have. The result is all of the independent teams that people on here complain about. Props to those organizations for trying to fill the expectations of what travel hockey should be.

I ask this question:

“Why are newer NHL city’s in non-traditional hockey markets developing and moving on more kids than Western PA which has had some form of pro hockey for almost 100 years?”

To my earlier point, we should be done “growing” the sport and established. High school hockey has been played here for over 50 years at some organizations. Based on a 4 year “generation” at that level we’ve had 12+ generations in that timespan. The foundation is there but the maturity is not.

Bottom line is PAHL has competition and competition is good for the consumer. PAHL can raise the bar and improve the product that they control or become a memory.

You make great points. My guess as to why PAHL is like it is, is because the dinosaurs that run it have been doing it forever and have continued to personally make enough money from it that they don't really care. Or they are a bunch of know-it-alls. Possibly all of that. 

[Lifelongbender]

I remember a time when gamesheets for PAHL were available online - at least for a short while.

[dazedandconfused]

On 8/31/2023 at 11:35 PM, Stinger17 said:

From getting a players name out there,

It is VERRRY important to get those 10U "B" players names out there.

 

On 8/31/2023 at 11:35 PM, Stinger17 said:

to attracting better teams for competition

Huh? They tell you who you are playing and when and where

 

On 8/31/2023 at 11:35 PM, Stinger17 said:

CSDHL and the quality of the teams in that league year after year.

This is an absurd attempt at comparison. CS has like 20-25 teams at each group......... Max. Just look at some of the garbage in the AHF AA divisions

 

On 8/31/2023 at 11:35 PM, Stinger17 said:

I think you can find most of that on the AHF page.

Sure.... and then they'll take your spring money and enter the team in their events and then get you one more time on the hotels

 

On 8/31/2023 at 11:35 PM, Stinger17 said:

newer NHL city’s in non-traditional hockey markets developing and moving on more kids than Western PA

Show some evidence..... you know facts........ data that proves a point. Do you have any?

Do you realize that there are currently 7, count them 7 local kids on Penn State's D1 roster?

Provide some data from say Seattle, Vegas? Even Raleigh or Columbus which have been around longer.

 

 

[Carl Racki]

3 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

It is VERRRY important to get those 10U "B" players names out there.

 

Huh? They tell you who you are playing and when and where

 

This is an absurd attempt at comparison. CS has like 20-25 teams at each group......... Max. Just look at some of the garbage in the AHF AA divisions

 

Sure.... and then they'll take your spring money and enter the team in their events and then get you one more time on the hotels

 

Show some evidence..... you know facts........ data that proves a point. Do you have any?

Do you realize that there are currently 7, count them 7 local kids on Penn State's D1 roster?

Provide some data from say Seattle, Vegas? Even Raleigh or Columbus which have been around longer.

 

 

Yes, the AHF league is a glorified PAHL level league that you will travel very far to play in and spend lots of money on hotels.  They will try to dress it up with stats and "neat" stuff to sell the kids and parents on it.  It makes no sense to drive 5+ hours and play similar PAHL competition multiple times a year.  Just my thoughts.

And again, if all the wanna be AAA teams in the burgh that aren't in the top 50 just played PAHL, it would be a MUCH better league the the AHF league.  Might not have as cool of a website or the stats but it would be a lot higher level of play.  BB is laughing all the way to the bank at these teams they push into this league.

[Stinger17]

3 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

It is VERRRY important to get those 10U "B" players names out there.

10U and exposure are two words that don't go together in any sport. I assumed people would understand I meant 14u, 16u and 18u and the AA level. 

 

3 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

to attracting better teams for competition

Huh? They tell you who you are playing and when and where

My point was they attract teams from outside their league for tournaments.  Yes it sucks to travel to play another Pittsburgh team. My guess is they have a "West" division in the works when they get enough teams. The writing on the wall for that should be pretty clear by now.

 

3 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

 

This is an absurd  at comparison. CS has like 20-25 teams at each group......... Max. Just look at some of the garbage in the AHF AA divisions

It wasn't a comparison it was an example of a league that's got their shite together. The CSDHL consists of only AA birth year teams that play a mix of AA/AAA games. It's a legimite bridge league between Tier 2 and Tier 1. They also have limits on the movement of players from organization to organization to prevent the green grass effect that we see here so often.

Back to my point, it wouldn't take much more than a phone call or email to another league (the CSDHL was my example) to develop some type of inter-league play/tournaments. This could be a fixed option for local organizations to fill out their "independent" schedules or a "reward" for the say top 4 teams at the 14u thru 18u levels.  Basically this is what Big Bear actually did but without the "hostile takover".

 

3 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

 

Sure.... and then they'll take your spring money and enter the team in their events and then get you one more time on the hotels

It's youth sports, it's a business and it's called travel hockey for a reason. Would you rather drop money and go to tryouts for the pop-up local spring team just to be cut because the team was already picked? or the team filled with players trying to compete well above their actual level of play but players aren't cut because it's a money grab?

If the stats are available its not that hard to figure out which kids to invite. I know it's crazy to think about getting all the best players in the area actually on the same team. But if a league did this it might take some of the politics out of it. If memory serves, the Keystone Games used to be a big deal and part of it was because it was invite only? Can anyone confirm that?

 

3 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

newer NHL city’s in non-traditional hockey markets developing and moving on more kids than Western PA

Show some evidence..... you know facts........ data that proves a point. Do you have any?

Do you realize that there are currently 7, count them 7 local kids on Penn State's D1 roster?

Provide some data from say Seattle, Vegas? Even Raleigh or Columbus which have been around longer.

 

Western Pa can't be sorted out from the rest of the state on EliteProspects so those facts aren't easy to find. I understand that was a broad statement but it doesn't take much browsing to see that junior rosters (in the US) have a lot of players these areas. Maybe our numbers are still greater but they are closing the gap on us faster than we have closed the gap on Michigan or even NY. I wouldn't even consider a comparison to Minnesota or Mass.

Seattle and Vegas are too young, 90's and early 2000's expansion citys.

7 PA kids on an NCAA D1 roster is the exception and not the rule. (Some of those players are from out east.) I think it would be hard to find another roster with 2 or 3 from all of PA let alone the Pittsburgh area. I wish it was the norm!

To be 100% clear, I am not an advocate for/against the AHF or intent on bashing PAHL and it's member organizations. I'm just saying it never hurts to look at the competition to see what they are doing...

[hockeyisgreat]

3 hours ago, Stinger17 said:

 

To be 100% clear, I am not an advocate for/against the AHF or intent on bashing PAHL and it's member organizations. I'm just saying it never hurts to look at the competition to see what they are doing...

Stinger again I think you are 100% right on!  The PAHL needs to step up!  They need to get out of their antiquated ways and promote Hockey as opposed to just running a league!  Wouldn't take much to have a PR department to handle stats and make them a player friendly league.

[RJUSHL]

9 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

Yes, the AHF league is a glorified PAHL level league that you will travel very far to play in and spend lots of money on hotels.  They will try to dress it up with stats and "neat" stuff to sell the kids and parents on it.  It makes no sense to drive 5+ hours and play similar PAHL competition multiple times a year.  Just my thoughts.

This is true as it currently stands, but within a year or two there will be more AHF teams in western PA than PAHL teams. At that point the few remaining PAHL teams will be the ones that have to travel. This is sad but this is the reality. We've seen this script before. Anyone who thinks it will play out any differently is wrong.

Right now there are four Western PA organizations in the AHF National Division; Allegheny, South Pittsburgh, Icemen, and Huskies. We're not at a tipping point yet but it's going to happen fast. 

[dazedandconfused]

9 from PA

7 from this area

[Stinger17]

Because we like stats and facts around here I went over to the AHF website and checked the scores for 14u AA from this past weekend. It was refreashingly easy to find the info. I didn't see any home and homes with local teams from across the river on any of their schedules. Only 3 of the 4 local teams played games. Two of those teams had great weekends by going 4-0 and statisticly dominated their opponents, the other was a respectable 2-2. Best of luck to all of these teams representing Western Pa hockey.

[dazedandconfused]

Good for them. Let's see where the teams they "dominated statistically" land when the first rankings come out.

 

Here's your home and home across the river series since your data mining skills seem about as good as your PA geography skills. 6 games - 4 over Labor Day weekend

https://atlantichockeyfederation.com/13u-aa/win-loss-ratio/

 

[hockeyisgreat]

2 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

Good for them. Let's see where the teams they "dominated statistically" land when the first rankings come out.

 

Here's your home and home across the river series since your data mining skills seem about as good as your PA geography skills. 6 games - 4 over Labor Day weekend

https://atlantichockeyfederation.com/13u-aa/win-loss-ratio/

 

Not sure exactly what your beef is with the AHF & THF.  To me it seems to be a whole lot better than just playing PAHL games!  PAHL probably had a dozen or so games over the weekend.  You have to go mining on MYHR to try to find any info.  

PAHL = Dinosaur

[Carl Racki]

5 hours ago, Stinger17 said:

Because we like stats and facts around here I went over to the AHF website and checked the scores for 14u AA from this past weekend. It was refreashingly easy to find the info. I didn't see any home and homes with local teams from across the river on any of their schedules. Only 3 of the 4 local teams played games. Two of those teams had great weekends by going 4-0 and statisticly dominated their opponents, the other was a respectable 2-2. Best of luck to all of these teams representing Western Pa hockey.

This is my point exactly.  Teams that could or should play in PAHL AA could have played similar or better competition at home and saved the travel/trip.  The AHF league is a weak league and no better than PAHL. If our local AA teams are going out and dominating then why not just play each other.  You will just waste a ton more money on hotels, meals, and food.  They fancy it up with stats and a nice website.   Maybe if someone at PAHL  came in and made some good changes it would help the league. 

The THF is also a joke in my opinion.  It is a very good AA league but you can't register AA and play in it or you would hurt people's feeling when your AA team beat their "AAA" team.  I have said this though for years on here.  Now you have the AHF and THF made by BB to monopolize yet more markets, force their leagues, and make more money.  The higher costs are definitely not good for the game.

[RJUSHL]

2 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

This is my point exactly.  Teams that could or should play in PAHL AA could have played similar or better competition at home and saved the travel/trip.  The AHF league is a weak league and no better than PAHL. If our local AA teams are going out and dominating then why not just play each other.  You will just waste a ton more money on hotels, meals, and food.  They fancy it up with stats and a nice website.   Maybe if someone at PAHL  came in and made some good changes it would help the league. 

The THF is also a joke in my opinion.  It is a very good AA league but you can't register AA and play in it or you would hurt people's feeling when your AA team beat their "AAA" team.  I have said this though for years on here.  Now you have the AHF and THF made by BB to monopolize yet more markets, force their leagues, and make more money.  The higher costs are definitely not good for the game.

The majority of the local teams that played in AHF AA showcase over the weekend also play PAHL AA. I believe the only exception is the 09 Iceman. I know Allegheny 14U AA and South Pittsburgh 14U AA are playing both PAHL and AHF this season.

These teams are playing a partial AHF schedule with a few showcase weekends, and then if they qualify they'll have playoffs. They can play in PAHL playoffs as well as AHF playoffs. It's not an either or proposition at this point. Teams do both. As PAHL dwindles and AHF keeps picking up teams, I would think some of these organizations will move to a full AHF schedule.

This is a huge shift in Western PA hockey. It's happening and PAHL has done nothing to stop it. It'll happen first at AA, and then lower divisions.

[aaaahockey]

I know this differs by age but I think the AHF folks have to start fielding a better top to bottom ranked teams for the switch to happen.  We thought about it for one of my kids teams but PAHL was better competition so why add the travel?  A showcase or two is one thing but what if you have to play a season?  

[fafa fohi]

On 9/1/2023 at 10:56 AM, hockeyisgreat said:

Stinger, you are right on with all of this.  Hopefully the new PAHL format will change their antiquated ways.  I can't believe that they do nothing to promote the players within their league. Especially at the AA level 14U and above.  The kids that lead the league should be recognized.  They have had the information all along but choose not to show it to the public.  Not sure why!  I love the transparency of THF & AHF. Players of the week etc.  Gives the kids something to strive for.  They could have an Allstar game at the 18U, 16U and 14U.  But again they choose not to.  At least PIHL does that and makes the Stats readily accessible to all.

Other Tier 2 AA leagues throughout the country log stats within their own network, but many also do the same on Elite Prospects which has become the go-to for stat freaks.  Although the coaches / managers are the ones logging stats for Elite Prospects, it is not isolated within a few AA teams.

The dinosaurs within PAHL do none of this.

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

On 9/5/2023 at 4:42 AM, Stinger17 said:

If the stats are available its not that hard to figure out which kids to invite. I know it's crazy to think about getting all the best players in the area actually on the same team. But if a league did this it might take some of the politics out of it. If memory serves, the Keystone Games used to be a big deal and part of it was because it was invite only? Can anyone confirm that?

 

In the 90s, it wasn't invite only, but the coaches lobbied players to show up at tryouts. If the coaches had not contacted you, it's not impossible that you would have made the team, but it would be much harder. Keep in mind that in the 90s, many of the rinks were closed for at least a month in the hottest part of summer, and summer hockey was somewhat of a novelty. You might go to a camp or two or play some loosely organized local summer league, but nothing like today. Playing higher intensity hockey in the summer was a big draw in those days because it didn't really exist otherwise. Another thing is, tryouts were in the fall back then. The KSG were a good way to get into game shape. Nowadays, plenty of kids have practices for their teams in the summer and the novelty and expense of a one-off tournament in the summer is a thing of the past. The KSG is now just another thing you can do in the summer. I see plenty of kids going to skills camps and private lessons all summer now, which is easier on the car and probably a better use of the money.

KSG at its peak did have a lot of the best players around here, but it was never close to being all of them. The Chicago Showcase was probably the only place where you had most of the best players around here on one team, and of course that process was often accused of being tainted or biased.

[nemesis8679]

20 hours ago, fafa fohi said:

Other Tier 2 AA leagues throughout the country log stats within their own network, but many also do the same on Elite Prospects which has become the go-to for stat freaks. 

Stat freaks for minor hockey teams? 

And I thought I had some useless hobbies. 

[fafa fohi]

3 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

Stat freaks for minor hockey teams? 

And I thought I had some useless hobbies. 

Seems someone has not spent much time on Elite Prospects nor have a clear understanding of AA hockey.   Could it be that your kid was the recipient of a bought extra A for flex purposes and bragging rights?

AA is not “minor” hockey,” especially U16 on up with the top tier teams as many kids go from AA to playing prep, juniors and / or college hockey.  Not all parents want to subject themselves to the cost, time, travel, headaches and expense that AAA offers.  If you had a clue you would know there are many AAA level players in western PA playing AA hockey for those same reasons.

As for those useless hobbies of yours, I can’t help you there.  Maybe you should make better choices in the future.

Edited September 7, 2023 by fafa fohi

[nemesis8679]

1 hour ago, fafa fohi said:

Seems someone has not spent much time on Elite Prospects nor have a clear understanding of AA hockey.   Could it be that your kid was the recipient of a bought extra A for flex purposes and bragging rights?

AA is not “minor” hockey,” especially U16 on up with the top tier teams as many kids go from AA to playing prep, juniors and / or college hockey.  Not all parents want to subject themselves to the cost, time, travel, headaches and expense that AAA offers.  If you had a clue you would know there are many AAA level players in western PA playing AA hockey for those same reasons.

As for those useless hobbies of yours, I can’t help you there.  Maybe you should make better choices in the future.

I bet there's more A players than AAA players playing AA, around here. 

And are we talking going to pay-to-play juniors, or real juniors? How many? 

[stickboy]

1 hour ago, fafa fohi said:

AA is not “minor” hockey,” especially U16 on up with the top tier teams as many kids go from AA to playing prep, juniors and / or college hockey.  

there are many AAA level players in western PA playing AA hockey for those same reasons.

Your first statement is too broad.  While I doubt that there are “many” AA players that advance as you say, maybe there are some. But don’t be misleading!  There is closer to zero than many of them that are making a top tier hockey prep school, a Tier 1 junior team, and D1 college team.  The players you are talking about may go on to the pop-up hockey academies, Tier 3 juniors, “and/or” ACHA M3 college hockey. That’s about the only level of college hockey you can play without playing AAA and juniors. Nothing wrong with that, but there is a big difference and shouldn’t be lumped together.

You sound like the Facebook parent telling your ignorant friends that your kid made a major university’s college hockey team, when in reality it is ACHA D3 pay to play. I see those posts going around. 

And there is not a lot of AAA level players in western PA playing AA. Not legitimate AAA level

 

 

[nemesis8679]

4 hours ago, stickboy said:

Your first statement is too broad.  While I doubt that there are “many” AA players that advance as you say, maybe there are some. But don’t be misleading!  There is closer to zero than many of them that are making a top tier hockey prep school, a Tier 1 junior team, and D1 college team.  The players you are talking about may go on to the pop-up hockey academies, Tier 3 juniors, “and/or” ACHA M3 college hockey. That’s about the only level of college hockey you can play without playing AAA and juniors. Nothing wrong with that, but there is a big difference and shouldn’t be lumped together.

You sound like the Facebook parent telling your ignorant friends that your kid made a major university’s college hockey team, when in reality it is ACHA D3 pay to play. I see those posts going around. 

And there is not a lot of AAA level players in western PA playing AA. Not legitimate AAA level

 

 

I would add that ACHA, while it might not be something to brag about, isn't something to be ashamed of either.