Overqualified Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 2 hours ago, Happy Hockey Fan said: Nobody in Class A from PIHL has shot at States in my opinion. You keep mentioning teams that have competitive and full JV teams should be in 2A. There are teams that have been barely able to field a JV team that have been forced to play AA and it has showed that they didn’t belong there. The competitive balance formula needs to take that as a more serious reason for not moving teams up. As well as taking into consideration how many seniors a team loses. North Hills is a perfect example of that this year. Bishop Canevin should have been removed from the open class years ago. They have had enough kids that attended the school to field teams without the Co-op players. They have played many many games with kids that actually attend the school watch from the stands while the co-op players played in every game. They manipulate the system so they can have their outstanding co-op players play all the while they could field a team without them. It is a shame that PIHL has let this happen. But I guess no one should be surprised by their lack of action as they have been manipulated before. When Moon won the open Class championship they had ONE player that didn’t attend Moon. It was an excuse not to play AAA that year. Which was also a ridiculous ask of Moon after losing so many seniors the previous year. Just checked 8 Penguin cups and only 2 loses in 3 years Went to Nationals the last 2 years and probably going again this year How bad did they beat your kids team? No Jv team to hide kids like other organizations and only 38 kids in their freshman class There is 8 kids from Canevin on the team Before you say Catholic schools recruit in D2 you can recruit a whole school Just get better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zam Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 I got the feeling that PIHL is making the transition to 4 divisions. This Blue A division being the bottom. AAA, AA, A Gold will compete for penguins cup, A Blue will just have a year end tournament like the (Open division, B, D2, co-op) West Virginia teams are in that division, so that solves that problem. Last year A Gold played A Blue in the All Star game, this year they are separate games, so there must be a reason for that. The movement between divisions will continue the same. Win enough games at A minor, you move up to A major the next year. It's an attempt to keep regular season games more competitive the #1 Single A team doesn't have to play the #24 Single A team. I don't follow the Philly side, maybe they will follow suit. Just a hunch, I don't have any inside info FYI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Hockey Fan Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 55 minutes ago, Overqualified said: Just checked 8 Penguin cups and only 2 loses in 3 years Went to Nationals the last 2 years and probably going again this year How bad did they beat your kids team? No Jv team to hide kids like other organizations and only 38 kids in their freshman class There is 8 kids from Canevin on the team Before you say Catholic schools recruit in D2 you can recruit a whole school Just get better! Haven’t beaten my team. I am actually a fan of Bishop Canevin as I am a graduate of the school and played there myself. Maybe this year’s team has only 8 kids on the team that attend Canevin. But in the last few years there have been more than enough kids to field a pure team. I know this because I attended games to support my old team and talked to kids a number of times that were not playing, and they attended Canevin. I am talking 5 or 6 kids a game. There have been plenty of schools that play with less than a full team of skaters in the pure divisions. In fact, there have been teams in AA that have played without a full roster. (Which is another failure by PIHL). You can be a fan of a team or school and still disagree with how they make up their team. Good luck to Canevin the rest of the way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Hockey Fan Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 1 hour ago, Overqualified said: Just checked 8 Penguin cups and only 2 loses in 3 years Went to Nationals the last 2 years and probably going again this year How bad did they beat your kids team? No Jv team to hide kids like other organizations and only 38 kids in their freshman class There is 8 kids from Canevin on the team Before you say Catholic schools recruit in D2 you can recruit a whole school Just get better! How do you determine how many kids on the roster actually attend Canevin? It doesn’t show on the PIHL website. Is it because you are a Canevin insider and know this for a fact? I’d like to see where each kid actually attends school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overqualified Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 10 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said: Haven’t beaten my team. I am actually a fan of Bishop Canevin as I am a graduate of the school and played there myself. Maybe this year’s team has only 8 kids on the team that attend Canevin. But in the last few years there have been more than enough kids to field a pure team. I know this because I attended games to support my old team and talked to kids a number of times that were not playing, and they attended Canevin. I am talking 5 or 6 kids a game. There have been plenty of schools that play with less than a full team of skaters in the pure divisions. In fact, there have been teams in AA that have played without a full roster. (Which is another failure by PIHL). You can be a fan of a team or school and still disagree with how they make up their team. Good luck to Canevin the rest of the way! It doesn't matter how many kids from 1 team dress for a game it goes by the roster there has never been enough Canevin kids on the roster to go pure since they went to D 2 division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overqualified Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 12 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said: How do you determine how many kids on the roster actually attend Canevin? It doesn’t show on the PIHL website. Is it because you are a Canevin insider and know this for a fact? I’d like to see where each kid actually attends school. Oneanddone listed it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneanddone Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 22 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said: Haven’t beaten my team. I am actually a fan of Bishop Canevin as I am a graduate of the school and played there myself. Maybe this year’s team has only 8 kids on the team that attend Canevin. But in the last few years there have been more than enough kids to field a pure team. I know this because I attended games to support my old team and talked to kids a number of times that were not playing, and they attended Canevin. I am talking 5 or 6 kids a game. There have been plenty of schools that play with less than a full team of skaters in the pure divisions. In fact, there have been teams in AA that have played without a full roster. (Which is another failure by PIHL). You can be a fan of a team or school and still disagree with how they make up their team. Good luck to Canevin the rest of the way! Perhaps you need to look at the rules for determining a D2 (co-op) team - they are very clear on how this is decided. It is not about having a "full" roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Hockey Fan Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 13 minutes ago, Overqualified said: It doesn't matter how many kids from 1 team dress for a game it goes by the roster there has never been enough Canevin kids on the roster to go pure since they went to D 2 division I’d like to see the rosters with the kids schools listed. For the past five years. I’d bet that there have been enough kids from Canevin that they could field a pure team. If you have the information to prove me wrong I’d like to see that as well. I wouldn’t mind being wrong. But I can’t find enough information to prove it either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Hockey Fan Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 I don’t care what the rule says. If a school can field a team with less than a full roster they should do it. Because that is what some is what other teams do all the time. 11 minutes ago, Overqualified said: Oneanddone listed it Listed what? I didn’t see a list of where the kids attend school on this thread or anywhere else for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Hockey Fan Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 8 minutes ago, oneanddone said: Perhaps you need to look at the rules for determining a D2 (co-op) team - they are very clear on how this is decided. It is not about having a "full" roster. If a school has enough kids to field a team without added players they should play pure. If they have 12 skaters and a goalie they should be pure. That is what is fair to all the other schools. And there are plenty of teams that have done this. Why can’t Canevin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spear and Magic Helmet Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 12 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said: If a school has enough kids to field a team without added players they should play pure. If they have 12 skaters and a goalie they should be pure. That is what is fair to all the other schools. And there are plenty of teams that have done this. Why can’t Canevin? Don't forget, Bishop Canevin is a smaller school. Probably smaller then when you went there. The problem I see is, if you force them to play in a pure division with 9 players, they will struggle, which will lead to more attrition. The whole co-op thing is a mess for sure, but other sports, like football, do co-ops as well, so it's not a hockey-only problem. The biggest issue in hockey is a goalie. If you have 20 AAA players and none of them is a goalie, you're going to struggle...and if you struggle, then you get attrition, and the cycle continues. I'm not sure that there is a way to solve that, honestly. Problem #2 is that there is always talk of "development", but let's be realistic, a 9th grader who has never skated before is not likely to be a good varsity player in 10th grade. There is a whole slew of other factors like economics, distance from the rink, etc. that matter too...Meadville was once one of the best AAA schools in this area, then in the 2010s, they were relegated to the co-op division when they couldn't field a pure team anymore. The Eastern PA teams, last time I was paying attention, had very different classification rules. Big schools are AA, small schools are A, and AAA is whoever wants to be AAA. It was mostly private schools in AAA. Some of those schools in their single A classification are as big as the biggest schools in this area. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneanddone Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 (edited) 2 hours ago, Happy Hockey Fan said: I don’t care what the rule says. If a school can field a team with less than a full roster they should do it. Because that is what some is what other teams do all the time. Listed what? I didn’t see a list of where the kids attend school on this thread or anywhere else for that matter. So for your reference, here are the rules from PIHL 4) There shall be a “no-cut” policy for all co-op teams. If a report is received and verified of any co-op program cutting or discouraging players from any of their co-op schools, this shall be subject to review and discipline by the Executive Committee. 5) An association meeting the minimum requirement of 12 eligible players from their school/school district shall not be permitted to field a co-op team with any other association unless extenuating circumstances, showing a hardship, etc., are approved by the Executive Committee. a) If an association exceeds twelve (12) players from any one school within the co-op, after being approved as a co- op team, there shall be no discipline until they exceed fourteen (14) players from one school. Upon reaching fifteen (15) players from one school, that co-op team shall be required to declare a pure team for the next season if enough returning players are grade eligible. I know you don’t like the rules, but at no time in the years that BC has been in D2 have they had more than the number of players from Canevin outlined in the rules. If they had, they would have become a pure team. If you would like specific information on where kids go to school feel free to contact the registrar from BC or the school’s Athletic Directors. With the internet these days, it would also be pretty easy to find out where kids go to school. Edited January 16 by oneanddone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneanddone Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 2 hours ago, Happy Hockey Fan said: If a school has enough kids to field a team without added players they should play pure. If they have 12 skaters and a goalie they should be pure. That is what is fair to all the other schools. And there are plenty of teams that have done this. Why can’t Canevin? FYI…. The goalies for BC since they became a co-op have not been Canevin students….. so there’s that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadday4hockey Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 2 hours ago, Spear and Magic Helmet said: Meadville was once one of the best AAA schools in this area, then in the 2010s, they were relegated to the co-op division when they couldn't field a pure team anymore. Before my time but there are many questions about the purity of those teams back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spear and Magic Helmet Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 30 minutes ago, sadday4hockey said: Before my time but there are many questions about the purity of those teams back then. Oh yeah, absolutely. I think you are right on the money there. But in the pre-PIHL days, the enforcement and investigation of roster anomalies was not at all like today. It is fair to say that there were a few teams back then who would have some eligibility issues today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Law Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 Plus, they were in the Lake Shore league so WPIHL had no jurisdiction over them. Not sure how closely things were looked at. I thought they were pure. Pa Hickey would know better 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spear and Magic Helmet Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 50 minutes ago, Law said: Plus, they were in the Lake Shore league so WPIHL had no jurisdiction over them. Not sure how closely things were looked at. I thought they were pure. Pa Hickey would know better No way to substantiate this, but there were always rumors of this going on in WPIHL and SHIHL as well. Grades and actual school attended were in question with some players every year. I don't think that the WPIHL or SHIHL really had the resources or tools to investigate all of the claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Hockey Fan Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 4 hours ago, oneanddone said: So for your reference, here are the rules from PIHL 4) There shall be a “no-cut” policy for all co-op teams. If a report is received and verified of any co-op program cutting or discouraging players from any of their co-op schools, this shall be subject to review and discipline by the Executive Committee. 5) An association meeting the minimum requirement of 12 eligible players from their school/school district shall not be permitted to field a co-op team with any other association unless extenuating circumstances, showing a hardship, etc., are approved by the Executive Committee. a) If an association exceeds twelve (12) players from any one school within the co-op, after being approved as a co- op team, there shall be no discipline until they exceed fourteen (14) players from one school. Upon reaching fifteen (15) players from one school, that co-op team shall be required to declare a pure team for the next season if enough returning players are grade eligible. I know you don’t like the rules, but at no time in the years that BC has been in D2 have they had more than the number of players from Canevin outlined in the rules. If they had, they would have become a pure team. If you would like specific information on where kids go to school feel free to contact the registrar from BC or the school’s Athletic Directors. With the internet these days, it would also be pretty easy to find out where kids go to school. I think those rules are fair. I also still believe they had more than 12 skaters at least once since becoming coop. That being said, I also understand that having 12 one year and not in the previous or following years would have a serious effect on continuing a program if they played pure one year and had to go back to co-op. And I also I am happy for kids that get to play when they wouldn’t have a chance otherwise. I already do enough research into youth hockey and since I can’t find the info on the PIHL website about where each kid plays I’ll accept your answer as pretty truthful. Good Luck to Canevin the rest of the way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Hockey Fan Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 (edited) 5 hours ago, Spear and Magic Helmet said: Don't forget, Bishop Canevin is a smaller school. Probably smaller then when you went there. The problem I see is, if you force them to play in a pure division with 9 players, they will struggle, which will lead to more attrition. The whole co-op thing is a mess for sure, but other sports, like football, do co-ops as well, so it's not a hockey-only problem. The biggest issue in hockey is a goalie. If you have 20 AAA players and none of them is a goalie, you're going to struggle...and if you struggle, then you get attrition, and the cycle continues. I'm not sure that there is a way to solve that, honestly. Problem #2 is that there is always talk of "development", but let's be realistic, a 9th grader who has never skated before is not likely to be a good varsity player in 10th grade. There is a whole slew of other factors like economics, distance from the rink, etc. that matter too...Meadville was once one of the best AAA schools in this area, then in the 2010s, they were relegated to the co-op division when they couldn't field a pure team anymore. The Eastern PA teams, last time I was paying attention, had very different classification rules. Big schools are AA, small schools are A, and AAA is whoever wants to be AAA. It was mostly private schools in AAA. Some of those schools in their single A classification are as big as the biggest schools in this area. I also believe forcing some team that has 9 skaters play pure is a bad idea. The rule started that 12 is the number which I think is fair. And I also realize now that even if you have 12 skaters one year, you may not have 12 the next and would need to add players, hence the coop. And if a team has to go back and forth from moire to co-op every year that that would cause continuation problems. The goalie situation is always a tenuous one. Especially schools that have one goalie for both varsity and JV teams. And the eastern part of the state has A teams that have larger enrollments than some of Western PA’s AAA schools. Hence why I believe that no A school from the west will win States in the near future. Edited January 16 by Happy Hockey Fan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Hockey Fan Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 4 hours ago, oneanddone said: FYI…. The goalies for BC since they became a co-op have not been Canevin students….. so there’s that Big reason why they are coop. But Montour has a kid come into 9th grade and actually go to school at Montour and PIHL shuts them down even after their roster was approved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surecat069 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 PIHL doesn’t care if you have a goalie on the roster. To them it doesn’t matter, if you have 12 students/players from 1 school - you are to go pure, unless you can prove a "hardship" - which is a joke. This was brought up many times, the answer always is "just put a player in net, you have enough players" – unless you know someone, and this gets approved as your “hardship”. A team that is making a move from D2 to Pure will have a hard enough time surviving, let alone without an established goalie. Even with an established goalie, a team that’s making the move to pure will struggle mightily, unless they have strong numbers. 12 players won’t work at the Varsity level- it borderline dangerous, as a team will be forced to play someone who probably has no busniess on Varsity ice. The whole Co-Op rules and regulations need reviewed and re-done from top to bottom, there are so many disparities throughout the whole thing - different rules for different people - everyone gets a different answer - zero consistency. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spear and Magic Helmet Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 32 minutes ago, surecat069 said: PIHL doesn’t care if you have a goalie on the roster. To them it doesn’t matter, if you have 12 students/players from 1 school - you are to go pure, unless you can prove a "hardship" - which is a joke. This was brought up many times, the answer always is "just put a player in net, you have enough players" – unless you know someone, and this gets approved as your “hardship”. A team that is making a move from D2 to Pure will have a hard enough time surviving, let alone without an established goalie. Even with an established goalie, a team that’s making the move to pure will struggle mightily, unless they have strong numbers. 12 players won’t work at the Varsity level- it borderline dangerous, as a team will be forced to play someone who probably has no busniess on Varsity ice. The whole Co-Op rules and regulations need reviewed and re-done from top to bottom, there are so many disparities throughout the whole thing - different rules for different people - everyone gets a different answer - zero consistency. These are all great points. If anything, I would say you need 15 skaters and 2 goalies minimum before you can be forced into a pure situation. I'm not saying 15 good skaters and 2 good goalies, I'm just talking pure numbers. 12 skaters and one goalie can easily end up being 8 skaters and 0 goalies for a game on a bad night. Let alone the fact that with those kinds of numbers, you will have practices with 5 skaters and no goalies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafa fohi Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 19 hours ago, Happy Hockey Fan said: Big reason why they are coop. But Montour has a kid come into 9th grade and actually go to school at Montour and PIHL shuts them down even after their roster was approved. Good god, are we going to beat that dead horse that is the Montour goalie situation from last year once again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Hockey Fan Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 8 minutes ago, fafa fohi said: Good god, are we going to beat that dead horse that is the Montour goalie situation from last year once again? Well we are talking about the inconsistencies of PIHL. So yes. Are you from Avonworth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafa fohi Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, Happy Hockey Fan said: Well we are talking about the inconsistencies of PIHL. So yes. Are you from Avonworth? Uh, no. Not even close. But by you asking such a question you are officially carrying the torch of beating this dead horse to death even more. Great. Edited January 17 by fafa fohi 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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