PAHL Standings

[James Gatz]

How are the scoresheets entered for PAHL tracking?  I've noticed several examples of teams having more fair play points than they have had games played.  It may be some user error on the upload, but when do these types of mistakes ever get corrected?

[TeamRamRod]

The home team manager enters the game into Sports Engine.  I've seen a lot of times where a team gets more than one FPP for a game or doesn't get one they should get.  Typically PAHL will audit the standings and points and correct it.  I'm not sure how often that happens but in past years it's always been corrected within a week or two.

[aaaahockey]

Yes PAHL also made it impossible for managers to correct so you can click and immediately see a typo or mistake and you can't fix it.  You have to wait for PAHL to do it. 

[James Gatz]

Thanks for the info.  Good to hear they audit it all eventually.

[nemesis8679]

Fair play points is the stupidest thing in PAHL. And there's quite a few stupid things to choose from.

[Icebucket]

50 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

Fair play points is the stupidest thing in PAHL. And there's quite a few stupid things to choose from.

Agree 100%.  People here, including myself, complain about faux AAA teams. However, when I talk to parents/players on faux AAA teams they usually list fair play points high on the list of why they don't want to play PAHL.

[James Gatz]

I’m too new to have a final opinion on the fair play points but seems like it amplifies problems from inconsistent officiating. Seems like at the level I am following most closely there are very few penalties called, so the FPP point is a given. Find that officiating crew that is whistle happy and you can get double punished for the penalty. Take a misconduct, and the point is basically gone. 

[Happy Hockey Fan]

37 minutes ago, Icebucket said:

Agree 100%.  People here, including myself, complain about faux AAA teams. However, when I talk to parents/players on faux AAA teams they usually list fair play points high on the list of why they don't want to play PAHL.

Yeah that is what makes them chase the extra A. They are using that as a reason when in reality they are just chasing extra A’s. 

[Rewster]

Is it just me, or does it seem like Belmont Complex in Armstrong is a void for FPP…especially for the road teams? I can’t remember the last time I was there for one of my son’s games and his team was awarded all (or maybe any) Fair Play Points. This is over several years and 3-4 different organizations.

[Rewster]

Id like to piggyback a question if anyone knows; why doesn’t the PAHL provide their league with individual statistics in aggregate compilation on their website? The PIHL does, and it’s essentially the same format of SportsEngine as PAHL. For instance, say I wanted to look up and compare the goalies in PIHL. It’s easy to find each division and compare: Games Played, Minutes Played, SOG, SVs, Goals Against Average, Save %…you can even see their PIMs and Assists under the separate “skater” category in PIHL. You can separate it by each division, or do the whole overall Varsity or JV league-wide comparison. Same thing with skaters statistics.

But the only statistics that you can find on PAHL for goalies is the number of Games Played. That’s it. No Goals Against Average, no Save Percentage, no W-L-T record. In this day and age, it seems weird to not provide the running statistical total…especially for the top-end AA teams. 

[ice is cold]

1 hour ago, Rewster said:

Id like to piggyback a question if anyone knows; why doesn’t the PAHL provide their league with individual statistics in aggregate compilation on their website? The PIHL does, and it’s essentially the same format of SportsEngine as PAHL. For instance, say I wanted to look up and compare the goalies in PIHL. It’s easy to find each division and compare: Games Played, Minutes Played, SOG, SVs, Goals Against Average, Save %…you can even see their PIMs and Assists under the separate “skater” category in PIHL. You can separate it by each division, or do the whole overall Varsity or JV league-wide comparison. Same thing with skaters statistics.

But the only statistics that you can find on PAHL for goalies is the number of Games Played. That’s it. No Goals Against Average, no Save Percentage, no W-L-T record. In this day and age, it seems weird to not provide the running statistical total…especially for the top-end AA teams. 

I was told at one point the "commissioner" of pahl was afraid of independent teams poaching top talent.

[James Gatz]

31 minutes ago, ice is cold said:

I was told at one point the "commissioner" of pahl was afraid of independent teams poaching top talent.

That may fend off lazy independent teams, but a spreadsheet and a couple hours time and you could track any goalie fairly easily. PAHL gives their minutes, shots/saves in the score sheet synopsis posted on their site. For skaters, they only report goals, assists and penalties 

[hockeyisgreat]

1 hour ago, Rewster said:

Id like to piggyback a question if anyone knows; why doesn’t the PAHL provide their league with individual statistics in aggregate compilation on their website? The PIHL does, and it’s essentially the same format of SportsEngine as PAHL. For instance, say I wanted to look up and compare the goalies in PIHL. It’s easy to find each division and compare: Games Played, Minutes Played, SOG, SVs, Goals Against Average, Save %…you can even see their PIMs and Assists under the separate “skater” category in PIHL. You can separate it by each division, or do the whole overall Varsity or JV league-wide comparison. Same thing with skaters statistics.

But the only statistics that you can find on PAHL for goalies is the number of Games Played. That’s it. No Goals Against Average, no Save Percentage, no W-L-T record. In this day and age, it seems weird to not provide the running statistical total…especially for the top-end AA teams. 

All that information is in there.  They just choose not to display it!  Not sure why the organizations within PAHL don't complain and force them to make them public.  Especially for teams over 12U.  Are they afraid that they will hurt feelings by listing the stats?  Black Bear shows all the stats and even has players of the week.  Why can't PAHL do the same?  They need to get out of their own way!  You can look at individual game stats but they won't let you look at  Player stats or goalie stats!  So bizarre!  At least this year they posted rosters!  First year for that!  Maybe next year we will get to see player stats!

[Rewster]

5 minutes ago, James Gatz said:

That may fend off lazy independent teams, but a spreadsheet and a couple hours time and you could track any goalie fairly easily. PAHL gives their minutes, shots/saves in the score sheet synopsis posted on their site. For skaters, they only report goals, assists and penalties 

You had me up until the “spreadsheet and a couple of hours time” part. 

I guess that I can understand the fear of independent teams poaching players; but only up to a certain age point and they definitely should be publicizing the U18 level…especially the AA. The majority of the U18 AA players are in their last year anyways. There’s nobody to retain.

It’s got to be only hurting whatever chance of advancement that the 18UAA kids might have. I mean, there’s at least a few really good PAHL AA teams that are nationally ranked high. Armstrong Arrows are currently ranked #5 in the Nation for Tier 2 and are beating legitimate AAA teams. The Pittsburgh Predators AA team is ranked higher that their AAA team and it’s not even that close. The Steel City Ice Renegades won the Tier 2 National Championship a couple of years ago (although I think that was 16UAA).
 

I’d think that the PAHL would want to show that they are developing players that get promoted past their AA level (even if’s a lower level Junior league); not the other way around. IMO, it would help keep the independent (dare I say faux) AAA teams away from poaching players if the PAHL can show that their best teams in the highest divisions are getting national recognition and visibility of their players from higher levels.

I mean, the PAHL has a U18 AA team in their league that is superior to the same organization’s “other” Independent U18 AAA. What more evidence do they need?

[hockeyisgreat]

11 hours ago, Rewster said:

You had me up until the “spreadsheet and a couple of hours time” part. 

I guess that I can understand the fear of independent teams poaching players; but only up to a certain age point and they definitely should be publicizing the U18 level…especially the AA. The majority of the U18 AA players are in their last year anyways. There’s nobody to retain.

It’s got to be only hurting whatever chance of advancement that the 18UAA kids might have. I mean, there’s at least a few really good PAHL AA teams that are nationally ranked high. Armstrong Arrows are currently ranked #5 in the Nation for Tier 2 and are beating legitimate AAA teams. The Pittsburgh Predators AA team is ranked higher that their AAA team and it’s not even that close. The Steel City Ice Renegades won the Tier 2 National Championship a couple of years ago (although I think that was 16UAA).
 

I’d think that the PAHL would want to show that they are developing players that get promoted past their AA level (even if’s a lower level Junior league); not the other way around. IMO, it would help keep the independent (dare I say faux) AAA teams away from poaching players if the PAHL can show that their best teams in the highest divisions are getting national recognition and visibility of their players from higher levels.

I mean, the PAHL has a U18 AA team in their league that is superior to the same organization’s “other” Independent U18 AAA. What more evidence do they need?

I agree with you 100%!  I blame it on the organizations. IF enough of them would complain maybe they could get the PAHL to turn on the Player Stats portion of the program.  I know for a fact that ACHA programs look at the Stats in the PIHL when they are recruiting players.  Ask your organization what their stance is on Stats.  The info is there!  PAHL just chooses not to let the public access it!

 

[hockeyisgreat]

PAHL Meeting on January 16th would be a good time to bring the issue of Stats up.  If enough Associations question them maybe we can find out why they choose not to let the public have access.  Or maybe someone from the PAHL board who sees this message board could respond to why the PAHL chooses not to show individual and team stats.

[Icebucket]

12 hours ago, Rewster said:

You had me up until the “spreadsheet and a couple of hours time” part. 

I guess that I can understand the fear of independent teams poaching players; but only up to a certain age point and they definitely should be publicizing the U18 level…especially the AA. The majority of the U18 AA players are in their last year anyways. There’s nobody to retain.

It’s got to be only hurting whatever chance of advancement that the 18UAA kids might have. I mean, there’s at least a few really good PAHL AA teams that are nationally ranked high. Armstrong Arrows are currently ranked #5 in the Nation for Tier 2 and are beating legitimate AAA teams. The Pittsburgh Predators AA team is ranked higher that their AAA team and it’s not even that close. The Steel City Ice Renegades won the Tier 2 National Championship a couple of years ago (although I think that was 16UAA).
 

I’d think that the PAHL would want to show that they are developing players that get promoted past their AA level (even if’s a lower level Junior league); not the other way around. IMO, it would help keep the independent (dare I say faux) AAA teams away from poaching players if the PAHL can show that their best teams in the highest divisions are getting national recognition and visibility of their players from higher levels.

I mean, the PAHL has a U18 AA team in their league that is superior to the same organization’s “other” Independent U18 AAA. What more evidence do they need?

PAHL 18U AA is very good this year. Typically by 18s it's a 2-3 team race and they crush everyone else they play. This year there are 5 strong teams that all play very competitive games. Teams 2 through 5 are separated by only 18 spots in MHR. For comparison last year 2 to 5 was 53 team apart 

[fafa fohi]

19 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

PAHL Meeting on January 16th would be a good time to bring the issue of Stats up.  If enough Associations question them maybe we can find out why they choose not to let the public have access.  Or maybe someone from the PAHL board who sees this message board could respond to why the PAHL chooses not to show individual and team stats.

Other organizations fielding teams at the AA level post stats and sync with players listed on Elite Prospects.

The folks that run PAHL are dinosaurs and clueless - making this change is not that difficult.  If you look at PA high school hockey, the moment stats post on the PIHL site they are uploaded on Elite Prospects.  Both PAHL and PIHL utilize SportsEngine so it makes zero sense.  The data is there - those fools should post it.

https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/csdhl-16u/stats/2022-2023

Edited January 10 by fafa fohi

[Rewster]

10 minutes ago, fafa fohi said:

Other organizations fielding teams at the AA level post stats and sync with players listed on Elite Prospects.

The folks that run PAHL are dinosaurs and clueless - making this change is not that difficult.  If you look at PA high school hockey, the moment stats post on the PIHL site they are uploaded on Elite Prospects.  Both PAHL and PIHL utilize SportsEngine so it makes zero sense.  The data is there - those fools should post it.

https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/csdhl-16u/stats/2022-2023

Yes! The CSDHL is the best AA Tier 2 league in the nation. In fact, they promote their teams and players and embrace their role as a “Developmental AA League.” It literally says it in their name…The Central States Developmental Hockey League. They’re not trying to hide their players. I’d argue that one of the reasons why they’re the best AA league because they’re attracting players that know they’re going to get looked at get. The CSDHL is not necessarily a terminal last stop “End of the Road League.”

[Lifelongbender]

16 hours ago, Rewster said:

Id like to piggyback a question if anyone knows; why doesn’t the PAHL provide their league with individual statistics in aggregate compilation on their website? The PIHL does, and it’s essentially the same format of SportsEngine as PAHL. For instance, say I wanted to look up and compare the goalies in PIHL. It’s easy to find each division and compare: Games Played, Minutes Played, SOG, SVs, Goals Against Average, Save %…you can even see their PIMs and Assists under the separate “skater” category in PIHL. You can separate it by each division, or do the whole overall Varsity or JV league-wide comparison. Same thing with skaters statistics.

But the only statistics that you can find on PAHL for goalies is the number of Games Played. That’s it. No Goals Against Average, no Save Percentage, no W-L-T record. In this day and age, it seems weird to not provide the running statistical total…especially for the top-end AA teams. 

I might be crazy, but I think I can remember a time when you could actually see the gamesheets - or at least all of the game sheet data - on there. That changed many years ago, but I'm pretty sure all of that data was in fact available a while back.

[hockeyisgreat]

2 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

I might be crazy, but I think I can remember a time when you could actually see the gamesheets - or at least all of the game sheet data - on there. That changed many years ago, but I'm pretty sure all of that data was in fact available a while back.

So far this year you can see the gamesheet data!  They just don't have the Player Stats and Team stats sections turned on.  I'm sure it is as simple as turning on the access!  I think they are afraid of hurting peoples feelings!  Maybe it's an all or none type thing!  Who knows but the dinosaurs need to wake up before they become extinct! 

[aaaahockey]

5 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

So far this year you can see the gamesheet data!  They just don't have the Player Stats and Team stats sections turned on.  I'm sure it is as simple as turning on the access!  I think they are afraid of hurting peoples feelings!  Maybe it's an all or none type thing!  Who knows but the dinosaurs need to wake up before they become extinct! 

So I totally agree with opening up access but I can also tell you as soon as they do every Chad and Karen out there is going to start emailing their manager telling them little Johnny scored 27 goals not Jimmy.  They will also get mad about penalties, assists, and everything else.  Telling them PAHL says you have to write what the referee says won't help.   If I were a betting guy, that's why I would say access is turned off.  I'm also guessing most parents out there don't know about scoresheet access but now I'm waiting on the calls 

[HatTrick]

Other leagues seem to handle this problem and continue to publish stats.  Just need to have a policy.

The Federation wants the statistics in our leagues to be as accurate as possible.  Coach and managers are to ensure that all GameSheet are correct at the end of the game.  

If a scoresheet is not accurate, the Federation has a scoring change policy: 

• Scoring changes are made via the AHF Manager’s portal by a coach or manager. 
• Scoring changes must be submitted with a video and the required information. Incomplete submissions will not be accepted.
• Goaltenders: the federation will add shots to a GameSheet submitted by a manager. Please note, the team will be subject to a fine if this practice becomes a regular occurrence. 
• It is the coach’s responsibility to verify the scoresheet at the conclusion of the game to verify accuracy. 

   

• NOTE: The league will not accept or change stats submitted by players or non team personnel.

   

*Changes may take up to 10 business days

[hockeyisgreat]

24 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

So I totally agree with opening up access but I can also tell you as soon as they do every Chad and Karen out there is going to start emailing their manager telling them little Johnny scored 27 goals not Jimmy.  They will also get mad about penalties, assists, and everything else.  Telling them PAHL says you have to write what the referee says won't help.   If I were a betting guy, that's why I would say access is turned off.  I'm also guessing most parents out there don't know about scoresheet access but now I'm waiting on the calls 

They can look at the game sheets after the games now!   Assists and shots are a whole different story.  The scorer can only write down what the ref tells them and shots are never accurate.  Being afraid of hurting Chad and Karens feelings is not a good reason to shut off the stats. Don't even get me started about participation trophies! PIHL has it turned on for everyone!  All the way down to Middle School!  No good reason why PAHL can't and won't.

[Carl Racki]

The problem is stats for PIHL, AHF, and other leagues/tournaments are so far off all the time.  Shot stats are wrong, goals , assists points, shg ppg, ,.....  Kids get mad, parents get mad, leagues here about it.  Until they actually make a real attempt to get them correct, why bother.  PIHL parents constantly complain.