PG Stellar 6 - 2024

[twoboys]

On 3/29/2024 at 3:59 PM, fafa fohi said:

I never said all kids do it, but a lot of them do it.  A lot of them.

Exactly.  

[oneanddone]

On 3/27/2024 at 10:48 AM, hockeyisgreat said:

While that is a wonderful list it is very sad that Keith Barnes does not recognize the co-op players! 

Ryan Saginaw and Gio Valentine were as good if not better than the Stellar 6!

It's not their fault that they play for teams that need to combine schools to form a team.  I would say that what they accomplished in some ways was tougher than what the Stellar 6 accomplished!  

Anyone ever ask Barnes why he doesn't even consider D-2!

Yes - this was the response from Keith Barnes several weeks ago when asked about the Penguin Cup coverage and then my response  - then crickets

KB-

We cover the D2 championship game every year, but D2 schools do not compete for the Penguins Cup and are ineligible for state finals. This was a Penguins Cup playoff preview.

That's what makes PIHL co-ops different from WPIAL co-ops. Penguins Cup teams have to be 'pure,' which is the league standard word used and not mine.

I know that may not explain it to your satisfaction, but that has been the policy for the 10 years I have written for the Post-Gazette.

 

My response -

I am very well aware of how PIHL classifies the teams and what the difference is between a "pure" and co-op team.  I am also aware that they won't call the D2 championship a Penguin Cup - that is a story in itself.

 

I guess you missed my point in that nothing is ever covered for D2 teams/players.  Have you written anything about a D2 team/player this year? - there are some really good players/teams that get no recognition.

 

Are you aware that a D2 team -  Bishop Canevin  - will be going to US Hockey High School Nationals for the third year in a row?  Last year they made it to the semifinals.

 

And an additional question:   will  D2 players be considered for the "Stellar 6"  or "Player of the Year" that will be published soon, or is that just for "pure" team players even though they all fall under PIHL?

[hockeyisgreat]

Great work!  Not surprising when you questioned him further!   

Which brings up a really good point!  Why is the D-2 Championship not for a Penguins cup?   Just because there is no similar league in the East or just because the higher ups believe it is inferior hockey?

It's played in the West so why can't it be called the D-2 Penguins cup?

Once again small schools are being discriminated against!

[Icebucket]

You can also make the argument of, why isn't every PAHL championship a penguin cup? Is D2 really any different from PAHL amateur play where it's players from a variety of schools?

I think PIHL does a great job of giving these players a place to play despite them not actually being school teams. But people are never satisfied and always want more than the gift they were already given.

[oneanddone]

If PAHL wants to call their championships Penguin Cups, then they would need to take that up with the Penguins organization.  The issue is not with what they are called  - it is with being considered basically a separate entity where the players/teams are "less than" the others.

I think you missed the point of this not being about PIHL and more about coverage and including all Varsity hockey players in consideration for the accolades that are given.  That is why this exchange was directed at Keith Barnes and not PIHL.

[hockeyisgreat]

8 minutes ago, Icebucket said:

You can also make the argument of, why isn't every PAHL championship a penguin cup? Is D2 really any different from PAHL amateur play where it's players from a variety of schools?

PAHL players can be from anywhere. No geographic requirements.  D2 teams are supposed to be from no more than 5 schools within a geographic region who are unable to field a team on their own.  PAHL hockey is nothing like PIHL High School hockey!  Once again it is not the players faults that they live in an area where their school can't field a team.  Why can't they be on equal terms with the "Pure Teams".

[fafa fohi]

There are numerous articles on the TribLive page covering the D2 division and specific teams.  

https://tribhssn.triblive.com/category/hockey/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=sports-tray&utm_campaign=click-tracking&utm_term=sports-category-hockey

[dazedandconfused]

37 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Once again it is not the players faults that they live in an area where their school can't field a team.  Why can't they be on equal terms with the "Pure Teams".

Because they can't. That's it, they just can't. Welcome to real life, if they can't accept it, oh well. Good luck in life snowflakes.

 

[Corsi]

45 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Why can't they be on equal terms with the "Pure Teams".

I feel like it this is an "apples to oranges" comparison, so let's try this.  I have been told that in other high school sports the teams that are co-op are placed in a division based off of the combined student bodies of the schools who compete on that team (this was in relation to boys lacrosse).  I am going to venture a guess that this would put the majority, if not all, D2 teams into the PIHL "AAA" division.  Can somebody who knows more about D2 give a guess on how they would match up with that division?  

[Happy Hockey Fan]

4 minutes ago, Corsi said:

I feel like it this is an "apples to oranges" comparison, so let's try this.  I have been told that in other high school sports the teams that are co-op are placed in a division based off of the combined student bodies of the schools who compete on that team (this was in relation to boys lacrosse).  I am going to venture a guess that this would put the majority, if not all, D2 teams into the PIHL "AAA" division.  Can somebody who knows more about D2 give a guess on how they would match up with that division?  

They would get blown out most games in AAA

[stickboy]

PIAA co-op is based off the student population of the host school, not combined. But there is a student population cap for schools they are allowed to have join.  I think it’s around 250 M or F, depending on the sport. 

[Icebucket]

24 minutes ago, Corsi said:

I feel like it this is an "apples to oranges" comparison, so let's try this.  I have been told that in other high school sports the teams that are co-op are placed in a division based off of the combined student bodies of the schools who compete on that team (this was in relation to boys lacrosse).  I am going to venture a guess that this would put the majority, if not all, D2 teams into the PIHL "AAA" division.  Can somebody who knows more about D2 give a guess on how they would match up with that division?  

In my opinion at least.  Typically the top D2 teams could play in AA and not be the worst team, however the weaker D2 teams might be on par with JV2.  This is why you see alot of the 10+ goal blowouts at D2.

[Happy Hockey Fan]

19 minutes ago, Icebucket said:

In my opinion at least.  Typically the top D2 teams could play in AA and not be the worst team, however the weaker D2 teams might be on par with JV2.  This is why you see alot of the 10+ goal blowouts at D2.

They wouldn’t compete in AA either. They would be near the bottom of AA. You have to have three very solid lines and a 4th line that can give you some decent minutes in order to be successful in AA. 

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

1 hour ago, fafa fohi said:

There are numerous articles on the TribLive page covering the D2 division and specific teams.  

https://tribhssn.triblive.com/category/hockey/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=sports-tray&utm_campaign=click-tracking&utm_term=sports-category-hockey

I agree with this. I have seen coverage of the D2 teams here and there. I do think that it is also true that they are ignored to some extent. It's complicated because there are teams like Meadville that have come back from D2. I believe Baldwin was not in good shape for a while either, but I think they only went down to A. Regardless, you would like to see teams have a chance to come back to the "pure" divisions, even if most of them do not.

Most of you do not remember this, but in the 1990s, Connellsville was in AAA due to the size of their school. They were terrible, losing every game by at least 10 goals, once again proving that school size is not the most important factor in whether a school team will be good. The guy who holds the AAA scoring record had something like 20 points in 4 games against them. You would like to have a place for a team like that to exist. I believe that was the original intention of the Open Division as it was called 20 years ago.

[Corsi]

13 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

They wouldn’t compete in AA either. They would be near the bottom of AA. You have to have three very solid lines and a 4th line that can give you some decent minutes in order to be successful in AA. 

OK...  so back to the Stellar 6 discussion, would the best player(s) at D2 put up similar numbers against AA competition if they are still on their D2 team and playing at that level?  I feel like that is the question that started this discussion.  Based off of some of the responses, unless the player(s) in question are good enough to carry a team, my instinct is that the answer is going to be they would not.

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

13 minutes ago, Corsi said:

OK...  so back to the Stellar 6 discussion, would the best player(s) at D2 put up similar numbers against AA competition if they are still on their D2 team and playing at that level?  I feel like that is the question that started this discussion.  Based off of some of the responses, unless the player(s) in question are good enough to carry a team, my instinct is that the answer is going to be they would not.

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/764524/ryan-saginaw

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/812047/tanner-heidkamp

I think these two would at least merit a mention. Yes, they play "faux AAA", but they are good players at that level, which is still at least as good as PIHL AA.

Edited April 2 by Spear and Magic Helmet

[Happy Hockey Fan]

17 minutes ago, Corsi said:

OK...  so back to the Stellar 6 discussion, would the best player(s) at D2 put up similar numbers against AA competition if they are still on their D2 team and playing at that level?  I feel like that is the question that started this discussion.  Based off of some of the responses, unless the player(s) in question are good enough to carry a team, my instinct is that the answer is going to be they would 

I doubt they would put up numbers as big as they did in the open class. But they would still be good players. Without a supporting group of players it is always harder to stack points. 
 

8 minutes ago, Spear and Magic Helmet said:

think these two would at least merit a mention. Yes, they play "faux AAA", but they are good players at that level, which is still at least as good as PIHL AA.

I believe you are correct, these players would be good in AA. But no way they rack up points playing with their open class teams in AA. They would still score a good bit, but no where near what they did in open class. But put those same two players on a pure AA team and they would be among league leaders in scoring. 

[zam]

The best player in PIHL could just as easily be on a D2 team or a single A team than on a PIHL AA or AAA team.  

If the co-op schools are in their own division, shouldn't Private/Catholic schools also be in their own division?  

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

4 minutes ago, zam said:

The best player in PIHL could just as easily be on a D2 team or a single A team than on a PIHL AA or AAA team.  

If the co-op schools are in their own division, shouldn't Private/Catholic schools also be in their own division?  

The private schools are mostly in D2, but to your point, the leagues in the east do mostly make the private schools play AAA.

And I agree, the best player in the PIHL could be on any team really. I do agree with the other point that they would not put up the same numbers in AA as D2. I don't know if there is really much gap between D2 and A. In fact, the best D2 teams might be better than the worst A teams.

What is crazy is the A teams would easily handle the best teams from the 70s...back then, most teams had about 5 guys who could skate and filled the rest of the team with guys they played street hockey with.

[fafa fohi]

2 hours ago, Corsi said:

OK...  so back to the Stellar 6 discussion, would the best player(s) at D2 put up similar numbers against AA competition if they are still on their D2 team and playing at that level?  I feel like that is the question that started this discussion.  Based off of some of the responses, unless the player(s) in question are good enough to carry a team, my instinct is that the answer is going to be they would not.

There are numerous good players at the D2 level putting up ungodly numbers, but that is because in general D2 teams lack the depth to field 3-4 solid lines so the top players are on the ice 75% of time time, including special teams play.  Also, some teams may roll four lines to give all players ice time which is a huge mismatch to a team rolling two lines with their best players which allows players to pad their stats.  Again, not to disparage any players on that level but IMO they would not put up similar numbers at AA or AAA PIHL level.

Edited April 2 by fafa fohi

[aaaahockey]

I would actually argue the players should be broken down by division rather than try to compare across divisions.  The best AAA players would probably have a whole lot more points in A or even AA.  That doesn't mean there aren't kids just as good in lower divisions it just means looking at points/goals/assists is really tough across very different divisions.  

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

15 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

I would actually argue the players should be broken down by division rather than try to compare across divisions.  The best AAA players would probably have a whole lot more points in A or even AA.  That doesn't mean there aren't kids just as good in lower divisions it just means looking at points/goals/assists is really tough across very different divisions.  

I agree with that. The drop-off between AA and A is way bigger than the drop-off between AAA and AA. There often are not many A players in the Stellar 6 either. However, there are some really good players in A as well.

[Overqualified]

Your not in AAA because you are good it's the size of your school they do try to move schools to different divisions to be more competitive but they don't look to see how many seniors are leaving from year to year

Every year there is 2 or 3 good teams in each of the 4 divisions any of those teams could beat one another on any given day after that there is a big difference each division is top loaded 

BC beat CV this year and CV went undefeated BC tries to play other schools in different divisions but they don't want to play it doesn't look good if you lose to a D2 school I get it

BC did pretty good at AA 8 pens cups just because they are small now doesn't make them not a good team

When BC plays TJ Lebo CV Baldwin USC ect in summer league they never have a problem winning granted it is summer league

Nobody has done there homework on how many D2 kids play at the next level? Way more than the other divisions

 

Burrell Neshannock Bishop Canevin Carrick Ringgold 

 

[Happy Hockey Fan]

25 minutes ago, Overqualified said:

Your not in AAA because you are good it's the size of your school they do try to move schools to different divisions to be more competitive but they don't look to see how many seniors are leaving from year to year

Every year there is 2 or 3 good teams in each of the 4 divisions any of those teams could beat one another on any given day after that there is a big difference each division is top loaded 

BC beat CV this year and CV went undefeated BC tries to play other schools in different divisions but they don't want to play it doesn't look good if you lose to a D2 school I get it

BC did pretty good at AA 8 pens cups just because they are small now doesn't make them not a good team

When BC plays TJ Lebo CV Baldwin USC ect in summer league they never have a problem winning granted it is summer league

Nobody has done there homework on how many D2 kids play at the next level? Way more than the other divisions

 

Burrell Neshannock Bishop Canevin Carrick Ringgold 

 

You are obviously a Canevin parent. And I understand that you want the kids to get proper recognition. But Canevin would be at the bottom of AA. Yes Canevin has some players playin at higher levels, and I know how many. I have seen them play amateur games and not just Canevin games. And there are some very good players, very very good players. But most AA teams have many players playing at higher levels.  Like 3 full lines of  higher level players. And a fourth line that is good. Canevin barely plays two lines. And any 4th line players hardly ever see the ice at Canevin if they aren’t blowing someone out. 
 

Once again, I root for Canevin. I know a kid on the team now and have known kids on the team for several years. I am also a graduate of and former player at Canevin. Big fan of all Canevin Athletics. I am just not looking through your parent shaded glasses. 

 

[Overqualified]

If you took the top 10 skaters and a goalie from each of the 4 divisions all 4 teams would be pretty equal your not better because of the division you play in high school in

AAA high school isn't like AAA tier 1 like amateurs