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Live Barn at YMCA Bethel/Mt Lebo?

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So noticed that these two rinks don't offer Live Barn yet - just recently got a subscription.    They have it at Ice Castle and Printscape.    These four are usually the ones that we go to a lot.    Unfortunately in addition, both rinks don't allow spectators to watch currently during the pandemic - so we have to wait outside while our son is at practice.     Anyone got the inside scoop from either of these two rinks if they are in the works now?   Was just curious.    Thanks!

 

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Posted (edited)

Bethel Park/YMCA is supposed to have Livebarn by the end of August, if there are no delays due to government shutdowns.

They are also saying that the prohibition on spectators might last for several months, by the way.

Edited by Lifelongbender

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3 hours ago, Lifelongbender said:

Bethel Park/YMCA is supposed to have Livebarn by the end of August, if there are no delays due to government shutdowns.

They are also saying that the prohibition on spectators might last for several months, by the way.

Good to hear about Livebarn at YMCA. I don't remember there being one-way glass windows last season. Did they replace those windows? I remember being able to see in the lobby from the outside. That's not the case anymore.

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1 hour ago, Quinlan2020 said:

Good to hear about Livebarn at YMCA. I don't remember there being one-way glass windows last season. Did they replace those windows? I remember being able to see in the lobby from the outside. That's not the case anymore.

I don't think the windows have been replaced. I wonder if it's just that we are typically only seeing them in the dark...

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34 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

I don't think the windows have been replaced. I wonder if it's just that we are typically only seeing them in the dark...

You could be right. I'll have to go when it's dark to make sure. I'm just a little paranoid that they may not want anyone to see what's going on in there. I would hope that the Live Barn would be available. If not, I will be convinced that they don't want parents seeing how these Covid-Era practices are being conducted to avoid controversy.

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I think they could allow spectators if done correctly. They would need to sign up and get a number. They would then be permitted to sit/stand at the numbered spot in the bleachers. The numbers would, of course, need to be spaced out to allow for social distancing. All spectators would need to wear  a mask and leave immediately when the session ends. Unfortunately, this would probably only work in theory as there will always be idiots that break the protocol and ruin it for everyone else.

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22 minutes ago, Quinlan2020 said:

You could be right. I'll have to go when it's dark to make sure. I'm just a little paranoid that they may not want anyone to see what's going on in there. I would hope that the Live Barn would be available. If not, I will be convinced that they don't want parents seeing how these Covid-Era practices are being conducted to avoid controversy.

The organizations that use the rink don't have any decision on the fan side, it's a YMCA decision so it isn't to hide the practices. Im sure coaches didn't mind not having a bunch of parents watching tryouts and complaining later though. 

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Even with Livebarn you can black our certain times if you want to not have people viewing tryouts for example.

Alpha doesn’t have it either for some reason which is gonna suck if that’s how we have to watch games this season.

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14 hours ago, Quinlan2020 said:

You could be right. I'll have to go when it's dark to make sure. I'm just a little paranoid that they may not want anyone to see what's going on in there. I would hope that the Live Barn would be available. If not, I will be convinced that they don't want parents seeing how these Covid-Era practices are being conducted to avoid controversy.

For the record, there's nothing particularly controversial being done at the YMCA. In general, they're just doing what the guidelines require. Which, I guess, is controversial in the sense that no other rink in the area is actually doing so.

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53 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

For the record, there's nothing particularly controversial being done at the YMCA. In general, they're just doing what the guidelines require. Which, I guess, is controversial in the sense that no other rink in the area is actually doing so.

I think this may be true, but sports are also a bit of a gray area.  I think you (and they) are assuming hockey practices are "gatherings" and limiting them to less than 25. I think the other rinks can also argue it is more like a restaurant situation (or even other sports) and indoor capacity should be limited to 25% of the fire marshall capacity.  Bethel Park school district proactively banned all fans for indoor sports the entire year.  I'm hoping at some point the state health department clarifies and allows indoor events to be modified in all cases to 25% capacity. I think that's an obvious solution in a large building.  

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You may be right that my last sentence, which was at least partially tongue in cheek anyway, is a little strong. Honestly if it were up to me we would be forging ahead more or less without restrictions. I'm generally that kind of guy. I don't disagree with your hope that the health department might increase the permitted number of attendees at an event. But it is my understanding that the guidelines are pretty specific about the numbers, and the interpretation you say that rinks are using is specifically incorrect by my reading of the guidelines on the PA website, which includes this passage in the section entitled "Guidance Applicable to All Sporting Events": Each individual game or practice at a complex must adhere to the gathering occupancy limits (25 in yellow, 250 outdoors and 25 indoors in green), and the facility as a whole may not exceed 50% of total occupancy otherwise permitted by law.

Whether or not the guidelines are reasonable or constitutional or whatever other argument can be made, they're pretty clear. For instance, the following is from the Targeted Mitigation Order - Frequently Asked Questions document on the PA government website: 

Does the 25 person limit apply to per court/field or for the whole facility for large sport facilities? What if the facility has dividers set up between courts and fields?
A facility that is able to create opportunities for discrete events may have 25 people per event space as long as there is sufficient division between spaces. For example, a conference facility may utilize moveable walls to create separate spaces or sporting facilities may use floor to ceiling dividers. However, the facility must ensure that common spaces like lobby areas, bathrooms, and hallways are cleaned frequently and visitors are not congregating.

Does this apply to recreational sports?
Recreational sports must follow the current Order's limitation on events and gatherings.  For indoor games or practices, 25 people or less can attend.  For outdoor games or practices, 250 people or less can attend.  At all times, spectators and (when not engaged in play) players should keep social distancing and wear masks.

What I think that some rinks are relying upon is the idea that the boards constitute a barrier that may permit a second group of 25 to attend per the first paragraph in the above excerpt. That may even fly, although the guidelines specifically use the phrase "floor to ceiling dividers". I think the YMCA is just being cautious, and complying with the strictest interpretation of the rule is a no harm situation at this time. My fear is that the rinks that are failing to comply with these requirements (and right now there is no specific exception for ice rinks that allows additional people to be spectators at the indoor events that I can find), legal and/or reasonable or not, are going to doom us to not having a season when someone gets sick and contact tracing, or some other investigation, reveals that they attended an event that did not comply with the requirements.

The best argument that the rinks are reading this right is the simple fact that everyone knows they are operating this way and none of them have yet been sanctioned for it. So you may be right that the interpretation they are using is more or less acceptable in the eyes of the state, but an honest reading of the requirements as they are written certainly suggests that the rules could be enforced much, much more strictly than they are right now.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Lifelongbender said:

You may be right that my last sentence, which was at least partially tongue in cheek anyway, is a little strong. Honestly if it were up to me we would be forging ahead more or less without restrictions. I'm generally that kind of guy. I don't disagree with your hope that the health department might increase the permitted number of attendees at an event. But it is my understanding that the guidelines are pretty specific about the numbers, and the interpretation you say that rinks are using is specifically incorrect by my reading of the guidelines on the PA website, which includes this passage in the section entitled "Guidance Applicable to All Sporting Events": Each individual game or practice at a complex must adhere to the gathering occupancy limits (25 in yellow, 250 outdoors and 25 indoors in green), and the facility as a whole may not exceed 50% of total occupancy otherwise permitted by law.

Whether or not the guidelines are reasonable or constitutional or whatever other argument can be made, they're pretty clear. For instance, the following is from the Targeted Mitigation Order - Frequently Asked Questions document on the PA government website: 

Does the 25 person limit apply to per court/field or for the whole facility for large sport facilities? What if the facility has dividers set up between courts and fields?
A facility that is able to create opportunities for discrete events may have 25 people per event space as long as there is sufficient division between spaces. For example, a conference facility may utilize moveable walls to create separate spaces or sporting facilities may use floor to ceiling dividers. However, the facility must ensure that common spaces like lobby areas, bathrooms, and hallways are cleaned frequently and visitors are not congregating.

Does this apply to recreational sports?
Recreational sports must follow the current Order's limitation on events and gatherings.  For indoor games or practices, 25 people or less can attend.  For outdoor games or practices, 250 people or less can attend.  At all times, spectators and (when not engaged in play) players should keep social distancing and wear masks.

What I think that some rinks are relying upon is the idea that the boards constitute a barrier that may permit a second group of 25 to attend per the first paragraph in the above excerpt. That may even fly, although the guidelines specifically use the phrase "floor to ceiling dividers". I think the YMCA is just being cautious, and complying with the strictest interpretation of the rule is a no harm situation at this time. My fear is that the rinks that are failing to comply with these requirements (and right now there is no specific exception for ice rinks that allows additional people to be spectators at the indoor events that I can find), legal and/or reasonable or not, are going to doom us to not having a season when someone gets sick and contact tracing, or some other investigation, reveals that they attended an event that did not comply with the requirements.

The best argument that the rinks are reading this right is the simple fact that everyone knows they are operating this way and none of them have yet been sanctioned for it. So you may be right that the interpretation they are using is more or less acceptable in the eyes of the state, but an honest reading of the requirements as they are written certainly suggests that the rules could be enforced much, much more strictly than they are right now.

Yep agree with you completely on this. Also those rules have been updated a bit since I last looked thanks for sharing!

 

Also brings up a good point - how much are these actually communicated?  I know restaurants have heard very little from the health department directly. They rely on the news. 

Edited by aaaahockey

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59 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

Also brings up a good point - how much are these actually communicated?  I know restaurants have heard very little from the health department directly. They rely on the news. 

Fantastic question. I bet there's a near unlimited amount of uncertainty among people managing open businesses of all kinds.

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2 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

Fantastic question. I bet there's a near unlimited amount of uncertainty among people managing open businesses of all kinds.

Not to mention all the people out there who think it's their job to police and report "violators". They probably overwhelm the health department with minor complaints and major violators never get caught. 

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For 3 on 3 at RMU they are using the 25 spectators rule. They have asked players to come dressed, limited teams to 9 skaters and a goalie, and only one spectator per player. 
 

Last couple games we were at with younger teams (14u I think) security had to actually thin out the crowd as the spectator limits weren’t being followed. I understand why a rink may just ban spectators as I suspect constant drama in limiting it. 

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31 minutes ago, Novos51 said:

For 3 on 3 at RMU they are using the 25 spectators rule. They have asked players to come dressed, limited teams to 9 skaters and a goalie, and only one spectator per player. 
 

Last couple games we were at with younger teams (14u I think) security had to actually thin out the crowd as the spectator limits weren’t being followed. I understand why a rink may just ban spectators as I suspect constant drama in limiting it. 

I for one am looking forward to having an excuse for watching games on livebarn rather than standing around obnoxious individuals. If I had mite or squirt age kids I'd be even happier. 

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8 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

I for one am looking forward to having an excuse for watching games on livebarn rather than standing around obnoxious individuals. If I had mite or squirt age kids I'd be even happier. 

In my experience, hockey parents are different than a lot of other parent groups- it always seems like overall they're less friendly. Generally as peaking, of course. 

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10 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

In my experience, hockey parents are different than a lot of other parent groups- it always seems like overall they're less friendly. Generally as peaking, of course. 

Unfortunately, and it isn't always the case, often hockey parents even on the same teams breed jealousy of each other and instead of cheering for a team default to cheering for their own kid, worried about them losing a spot on the team the next year or not looking as good as the best kid on the team. This often comes from parents with little knowledge of the sport or who learned about it from mite hockey and think scoring 200 goals is the way to be the best player on the ice. Hell with defense or passing or over carrying the puck.  Also doesn't matter if you lose as long as your kid scored the hat trick.  

 

Add to that environment another team who likely has a chip on their shoulder and you get a powder keg. It gets ugly - grown men yelling about and at children, fist fights in the stands, drunken idiots.  Yeah - I won't miss much about being at the rink if I can't go.

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21 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

I for one am looking forward to having an excuse for watching games on livebarn rather than standing around obnoxious individuals. If I had mite or squirt age kids I'd be even happier. 

Live barn stinks, pihl and Pahl should consult with hockey tv. It’s just a guy using an iPad and doing the announcing at the same time. 

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2 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

Unfortunately, and it isn't always the case, often hockey parents even on the same teams breed jealousy of each other and instead of cheering for a team default to cheering for their own kid, worried about them losing a spot on the team the next year or not looking as good as the best kid on the team. This often comes from parents with little knowledge of the sport or who learned about it from mite hockey and think scoring 200 goals is the way to be the best player on the ice. Hell with defense or passing or over carrying the puck.  Also doesn't matter if you lose as long as your kid scored the hat trick.  

 

Add to that environment another team who likely has a chip on their shoulder and you get a powder keg. It gets ugly - grown men yelling about and at children, fist fights in the stands, drunken idiots.  Yeah - I won't miss much about being at the rink if I can't go.

Perhaps it's because of the professionalization of youth sports these days that led to that. People talking like their kid's mite team is the Montreal Canadiens, and their kid is Maurice Richard. For all I know, travel baseball, basketball, etc. may be similar these days. It doesn't seem to effect football or track, or other sports that are more school-team based. And the parents whose kids play solely school/in-house teams seem much better adjusted to reality. 

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1 hour ago, nemesis8679 said:

Perhaps it's because of the professionalization of youth sports these days that led to that. People talking like their kid's mite team is the Montreal Canadiens, and their kid is Maurice Richard. For all I know, travel baseball, basketball, etc. may be similar these days. It doesn't seem to effect football or track, or other sports that are more school-team based. And the parents whose kids play solely school/in-house teams seem much better adjusted to reality. 

I dunno it's weird. Lacrosse definitely never seems to be that way, parents are 99.9% happy and cheer for the team.  Even individualized sports like wrestling and youth boxing ive seen more collegial environments.  Baseball can vary but I'd say across the board nothing I've experienced comes close to the parent idiocy in hockey. 

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8 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

I dunno it's weird. Lacrosse definitely never seems to be that way, parents are 99.9% happy and cheer for the team.  Even individualized sports like wrestling and youth boxing ive seen more collegial environments.  Baseball can vary but I'd say across the board nothing I've experienced comes close to the parent idiocy in hockey. 

Maybe out west where the lacrosse is not very good it's like that.  Here in the East, the lacrosse parents are way worse than the hockey parents.

Sorry about the dig, Saw the shot, there was no danger, so I took it. 😃

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15 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

I dunno it's weird. Lacrosse definitely never seems to be that way, parents are 99.9% happy and cheer for the team.  Even individualized sports like wrestling and youth boxing ive seen more collegial environments.  Baseball can vary but I'd say across the board nothing I've experienced comes close to the parent idiocy in hockey. 

I guess you never were around travel baseball, softball or especially football parents. It’s not exclusive to the sport of hockey. At all.

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31 minutes ago, hockeydadlife said:

I guess you never were around travel baseball, softball or especially football parents. It’s not exclusive to the sport of hockey. At all.

This is entirely true. Every sport is insane nowadays.

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