Initial PAHL Placements

[muckerandgrinder]

SMH.
I remember when you had to earn AA in PAHL. 

So much hatred for the so-called “faux” AAA teams out there. I’ve said it all along.. a small percentage of the parents on the non-PPE teams still chase the NHL dream, a large portion simply move on out of disgust for PAHL. Not the talent level but how he league is operated. The people running the league are dinosaurs with nothing better to do with their time since their kids aged out 15 years ago. 
No vested interest. No desire to make positive changes. Zero constructive thinking beyond the obvious until it comes to their favorite.. doling out disciplinary actions.
Placements are a joke as well..I’m placing my bets on any team from Cambria, Westmoreland, Wheeling etc. to win any division. Tank the placements and cruise through the regular season while they run the wheels off of their top 2 players who shouldn’t be playing A major whatever because the organization “doesn’t have the talent to support a AA team”.

PAHL is a joke and a bigger problem to local hockey than anything else. 
 

[By Stander]

38 minutes ago, muckerandgrinder said:

SMH.
I remember when you had to earn AA in PAHL. 

So much hatred for the so-called “faux” AAA teams out there. I’ve said it all along.. a small percentage of the parents on the non-PPE teams still chase the NHL dream, a large portion simply move on out of disgust for PAHL. Not the talent level but how he league is operated. The people running the league are dinosaurs with nothing better to do with their time since their kids aged out 15 years ago. 
No vested interest. No desire to make positive changes. Zero constructive thinking beyond the obvious until it comes to their favorite.. doling out disciplinary actions.
Placements are a joke as well..I’m placing my bets on any team from Cambria, Westmoreland, Wheeling etc. to win any division. Tank the placements and cruise through the regular season while they run the wheels off of their top 2 players who shouldn’t be playing A major whatever because the organization “doesn’t have the talent to support a AA team”.

PAHL is a joke and a bigger problem to local hockey than anything else. 
 

There are always opportunities for improvement in any organization and it's easy to sit on an anonymous message board and bitch, moan, whine and complain.  It's a lot harder to come up with real-life, concrete, workable solutions.  What are your specific recommendations and what have you done to put those forward for consideration?

[dazedandconfused]

54 minutes ago, muckerandgrinder said:

I remember when you had to earn AA in PAHL. 

So....... you're angry that there are 10 teams in 16AA? 8 in 18U?

What would you prefer? 4 and you play everyone else 4 times and get 12 league games.

58 minutes ago, muckerandgrinder said:

Placements are a joke as well..I’m placing my bets on any team from Cambria, Westmoreland, Wheeling etc. to win any division.

So, Westmoreland has an 18U Major team whom apparently tanked their placement but you've already said teams should have to earn AA. So which is it?

Westmoreland also has a 12U AA - did they tank but also not earn their AA placement?

Smaller, single sheet organizations tend to have a difficult time keeping top players and are more often than not, stuck in that gray area where what you describe is true, 2-3 players carrying a team. But within those organizations there are probably an equal number of teams that get pushed up and struggle to compete.

 

[hockeyisgreat]

18UAA, Locks for playoffs  Mt Lebo. Preds!   Steel City, Armstrong, North Pittsburgh will battle for 2 spots,  (It will be close!  Probably come down to Fair Play points!) Vipers, Badgers and South Hills should have played A Major!  Just my opinion. 

[hockeyisgreat]

What separates Westmoreland from South Hills in 18U?

[YardSale]

On 7 teams in 14U AA

[Happy Hockey Fan]

49 minutes ago, By Stander said:

There are always opportunities for improvement in any organization and it's easy to sit on an anonymous message board and bitch, moan, whine and complain.  It's a lot harder to come up with real-life, concrete, workable solutions.  What are your specific recommendations and what have you done to put those forward for consideration?

There have not been any changes to PAHL in many many years. Change takes work. I don’t think the leaders are interested in doing any more work than they do now. I believe new people would be more energetic in their efforts. 

[Happy Hockey Fan]

13 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

What separates Westmoreland from South Hills in 18U?

This is an easy answer. There are a ton more players in the South Hills. A ton more.

[fafa fohi]

1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said:

What separates Westmoreland from South Hills in 18U?

Not much at the AA level.

NP beat Westmoreland 8-1 last week while SHAHA lost to SCIR 9-0.

Edited September 21, 2023 by fafa fohi

[dazedandconfused]

18 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

There have not been any changes to PAHL in many many years. Change takes work. I don’t think the leaders are interested in doing any more work than they do now. I believe new people would be more energetic in their efforts.

There is a new commissioner that has implemented changes. There was also an election this year and only one position had anyone new running. There's no doubt some new personnel would be helpful but where are they going to come from?

You can't force someone to run for a position.

[Wes]

56 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

There have not been any changes to PAHL in many many years. Change takes work. I don’t think the leaders are interested in doing any more work than they do now. I believe new people would be more energetic in their efforts. 

And new blood can't penetrate the PAHL block wall. 

[nemesis8679]

51 minutes ago, dazedandconfused said:

There is a new commissioner that has implemented changes. There was also an election this year and only one position had anyone new running. There's no doubt some new personnel would be helpful but where are they going to come from?

You can't force someone to run for a position.

Yeah and if someone new runs, they still face getting voted in. Unless one of the dinosaurs leave, it's not going to happen. So nobody even tries. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by nemesis8679

[Happy Hockey Fan]

1 hour ago, dazedandconfused said:

There is a new commissioner that has implemented changes. There was also an election this year and only one position had anyone new running. There's no doubt some new personnel would be helpful but where are they going to come from?

You can't force someone to run for a position.

You are % 100 correct.

I have heard many complaints about different boards around both PAHL and PIHL teams. But not always someone willing to take over, same as this situation as well I am sure. 

[By Stander]

2 hours ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

There have not been any changes to PAHL in many many years. Change takes work. I don’t think the leaders are interested in doing any more work than they do now. I believe new people would be more energetic in their efforts. 

There are Mid Am and PAHL director/board positions open for nominations every year: the notices opening nominations are out there for anyone to see and volunteer for.   I've worked with many volunteer-based organizations over the years and have found that the ones that complain the loudest and longest rarely are willing to put in the time and effort needed to make a difference.

[nemesis8679]

1 hour ago, By Stander said:

There are Mid Am and PAHL director/board positions open for nominations every year: the notices opening nominations are out there for anyone to see and volunteer for.   I've worked with many volunteer-based organizations over the years and have found that the ones that complain the loudest and longest rarely are willing to put in the time and effort needed to make a difference.

And I have found the longer someone is ingrained into a position, the less likely they are to be open to new ideas from others. 

[HereWithPopcorn]

2 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

And I have found the longer someone is ingrained into a position, the less likely they are to be open to new ideas from others. 

Do people realize that with the PAHL, it is mainly the associations themselves that help to drive things.  While the Board may have some ideas, everything needs to be voted on.  And as Associations bring forward ideas, those get voted on as well.

What happens more times than not is that things get shot down because it is run like the Senate.  Every Association has two votes, but all Associations are created equally.  So an idea that may benefit larger organizations (Foxes, Allegheny, SHAHA, NP), gets shot down by the smaller ones (Wheeling, Indiana, Youngstown, etc).  And vice versa.

The PAHL is intended to be a facilitator of the league.

So if anyone here does have ideas for change besides running for a Board position, have you Association President raise the idea at a meeting.

[HockeyFan6687]

“This is the way we have always done it” is deeply entrenched in PAHL.  It’s why you see more teams looking at more independent schedules, AHF, EJEPL and whatever other leagues are out there. Make the league feel like something special.  Have a player of the week/month something.  Make the playoffs feel like an event. I’ve been to playoff sites that do nothing.  Feels like walking in for just another game.  If you want teams to stay then take your product next level.  There is still a place for the league but quit running it the way it’s always been for 50 years. 

[Carl Racki]

Again, the biggest problem with PAHL is all the bogus AAA wanna be teams that left.  If they could get all those teams back you would have an excellent AA league.  Maybe if they did all the PR that the AHF did it would help but I highly doubt it.  That league is not much better.  Their best beat would be to label it as a new AAA and then they would MAYBE get all the faux AAA teams back and have a good league.

[qwik_one]

17 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

What separates Westmoreland from South Hills in 18U?

The coach for SHAHA 18u AA is the PAHL league officer 1st Vice president. That’s one thing that separates them from Westmoreland 

Edited September 22, 2023 by qwik_one

[Chinstrap]

PAHL, IMHO is a classic pyramid scheme in that the bulk of the money is paid by the lowest age group. The Squirt parent that is brand new to travel hockey and doesn’t know anything about the organization or the league, their kid made a team and they start writing checks. By the time Mom and Dad start to figure things out and ask questions, their kid is older and probably a year away from HS and we all know that is where the drop off starts. PAHL administration know that there is an endless supply of folk that will give them 4-6 years of money, nobody is doing anything to challenge them or propose a viable alternative so why should they change?

[muckerandgrinder]

7 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

Again, the biggest problem with PAHL is all the bogus AAA wanna be teams that left.  If they could get all those teams back you would have an excellent AA league.  Maybe if they did all the PR that the AHF did it would help but I highly doubt it.  That league is not much better.  Their best beat would be to label it as a new AAA and then they would MAYBE get all the faux AAA teams back and have a good league.

For every team/player that has left PAHL there is a team/player that has left as a result of their dislike for the PAHL model. Honestly, I don’t think there would be any “faux” AAA teams if there was another league or AA option in the area at 14-18U that had a focus on adapting to change and growing the game. 

[Saucey]

1 minute ago, muckerandgrinder said:

For every team/player that has left PAHL there is a team/player that has left as a result of their dislike for the PAHL model. Honestly, I don’t think there would be any “faux” AAA teams if there was another league or AA option in the area at 14-18U that had a focus on adapting to change and growing the game. 

Oh that is malarkey. Give me a break. I don't buy this narrative. Maybe a coach pulls a team out of disgust with PAHL, but Mom and dad pull their kid because their kid didn't make AA or to chase the extra A or to follow the kids on that team. If PAHL made a bunch of changes....the disgruntled and disillusioned would still leave. 

It's done. The cat is out of the bag. No matter what PAHL does, people will move their kids to chase. They do it once....and they never stop. That isn't to say that there isn't room to improve or change. 

Change needs to happen above PAHL. I think this area needs some rules that make it harder to jump ship every season. But the same people moaning about PAHL will say....oh, no, we need our freedom of choice.

I think there is no pleasing people in this area.Dsmned if you do, damned if you don't.

[muckerandgrinder]

15 hours ago, HereWithPopcorn said:

Do people realize that with the PAHL, it is mainly the associations themselves that help to drive things.  While the Board may have some ideas, everything needs to be voted on.  And as Associations bring forward ideas, those get voted on as well.

What happens more times than not is that things get shot down because it is run like the Senate.  Every Association has two votes, but all Associations are created equally.  So an idea that may benefit larger organizations (Foxes, Allegheny, SHAHA, NP), gets shot down by the smaller ones (Wheeling, Indiana, Youngstown, etc).  And vice versa.

The PAHL is intended to be a facilitator of the league.

So if anyone here does have ideas for change besides running for a Board position, have you Association President raise the idea at a meeting.

I was our org. rep for PAHL when my ‘03 was in PW. On the outside it looks like your breakdown on how the league operates. On the inside it’s completely different and changes are met with strong “suggestions” to leave things as is. Basically you will be told that anything that requires any sweat equity outside of the current level will be shut down. The board has their cronies at various organizations and they will have their backing when they need to either push an agenda or shut something down. 
My main suggestions were a) a gradual transition period for the oldest mite group to eventually play a minimum of 2 full ice games at the end of the year.

b) Required transition to checking camp/clinics by each organization for all players moving from PW to bantam. Even just a 1 day clinic to learn how not only to check cleanly but how to take a check. Also to fortify what the purpose of checking is in the game.

That was almost 10 years ago. Glad they added that FPP though.

Discipline and controls for discipline are what matters most to the powers that be.

 

[muckerandgrinder]

6 minutes ago, Saucey said:

Oh that is malarkey. Give me a break. I don't buy this narrative. Maybe a coach pulls a team out of disgust with PAHL, but Mom and dad pull their kid because their kid didn't make AA or to chase the extra A or to follow the kids on that team. If PAHL made a bunch of changes....the disgruntled and disillusioned would still leave. 

It's done. The cat is out of the bag. No matter what PAHL does, people will move their kids to chase. They do it once....and they never stop. That isn't to say that there isn't room to improve or change. 

Change needs to happen above PAHL. I think this area needs some rules that make it harder to jump ship every season. But the same people moaning about PAHL will say....oh, no, we need our freedom of choice.

I think there is no pleasing people in this area.Dsmned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

I’m not asking anyone to buy what I’m saying. I do agree that people are going to leave regardless of any changes now.

PAHL needed to adapt a bit when the PAHL/hybrid/ independent teams started years back and they did nothing.

Take a look at the CSDHL. That’s a model in how a league should operate. Their AA teams regularly compete against AAA teams and they are good games. Why? Because the league is run with an eye on adapting to change and they make it appealing for players/families to stay.

 

[Icebucket]

While I agree that people will leave to chase the extra A regardless of what PAHL does, I can also say that I know they have driven good AA players away.

I know of at least a dozen players who were perfectly content to play local AA hockey, but instead played on subpar AAA teams because of the fair play point system. It has essentially turned PAHL into a non-contact league for fear of losing points for a ref making a judgement call and giving a 2 and 10. For anyone who would like to play either juniors or club hockey, it's hard to play non-contact through all of bantam and midget and then have to learn how to take a hit by a full grown man.