Off topic - but relevant - Skate blade death

[Wes]

If you haven't seen the snippet of Adam Johnson getting hit in the throat by a "reverse roundhouse kick" by the other player, you might want to check it out.  Once again, I've seen a ton of hockey over the years, and never saw anyone fall over on their own and then do a leg swing behind them and up in the air.

Looked very intentional to me.  The player also casually watched the aftermath and skated away, instead of rushing back to help the player which was another telltale sign to me.

I didn't post the video here but it is all over twitter.

I hope this is investigated, but from the races of the parties involved, along with the immediate "freak injury" crap from the media, I'm not confident this will be looked at.

I'd especially like to hear from some of the old timers on here about their thoughts on this one.

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Wes

[Happy Hockey Fan]

Police are investigating. Hopefully you are wrong. Hopefully. 

[Wes]

6 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

Police are investigating. Hopefully you are wrong. Hopefully. 

I haven't heard that.  But don't know how that can be construed as an accident.

 

[champeen]

^this guy legit believes black men are somehow less likely to face criminal charges than white dudes.  clownshow.

Edited October 30, 2023 by champeen
typo

[Icebucket]

I don't see any way there was intent there. The player who cut him had just made contact with Johnson's teammate right before leading to him going off balance. Do you think Johnson's teammate should also face charges for making incidental contact leading to the skate being raised?

[Wes]

2 hours ago, Icebucket said:

I don't see any way there was intent there. The player who cut him had just made contact with Johnson's teammate right before leading to him going off balance. Do you think Johnson's teammate should also face charges for making incidental contact leading to the skate being raised?

Between NHL and amateurs, I have probably watched 3,000 games.  Not once have I ever seen a player do that with his leg.  And if you look very closely at the slow motion, he gets Adam directly on the leg spin then kicks again at him on his way down.  There are two skate movements towards his head.

I have no idea how you see this as accidental, when he was BRUSHED - if that- but Adam's teammate, certainly not to the extent that his leg powerfully and directionally swings fully around and goes at a 30 degree upward motion.

I have seen hits where the player is fully spun around wildly, but due to gravity and physics, the legs are usually swinging level, or most of the time, downward.

This player swings his leg around and flings it so hard he flips himself to the ground --- not as the result of a check.  Watch it again.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Wes

[Paul Baxter]

After viewing this multiple times, it doesn't resemble an accident to me, but I'm not a medical doctor or physicist. 

I do agree that the Petgrave was barely touched and his leg actions do not look normal in this sort of instance, that I have seen myself.

 

[Happy Hockey Fan]

10 minutes ago, Paul Baxter said:

After viewing this multiple times, it doesn't resemble an accident to me, but I'm not a medical doctor or physicist. 

I do agree that the Petgrave was barely touched and his leg actions do not look normal in this sort of instance, that I have seen myself.

 

To be honest I am afraid to even watch it. I know that the kids and PIHL and PAHL better show up with their neck guards. It really is such a simple piece of equipment to wear. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Happy Hockey Fan
Misspelled word

[powderfinger]

3 hours ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

To be honest I am afraid to even watch it. I know that the kids and PIHL and PAHL better show up with their neck guards. It really is such a simple piece of equipment to wear. 

I was the same way but there are videos that just show moment of impact and not result. Given the benefit of doubt on first impact but there is a second “pushing off” contact that is harder to explain as an accident IMO.

[powderfinger]

Seems he’s got a history…

 

[nemesis8679]

I don't think it was on purpose. A player being a goon and having been suspended or getting a bunch of penalty minutes doesn't equate to assuming he would try to cut someone with a skate. Along with boarding, kicking is one of those things you just don't do. And I don't think he did. What I think happened (keep in mind we're not dealing with a player who is the greatest skater nor the quickest thinker out on the ice) is that he is moving with some speed, gets tripped up, and his legs fly up in the air. He sees Johnson coming towards him and instinctually and clumsily tries brace himself for collision, even maybe to kick his skate out of the way. Because of the how fast this all happened and due to him and Johnson both moving at different speeds, he had about a half-second to decide what was going on. Unfortunately, skate met Johnson's neck. 

I feel awful for Johnson, his family, and teammates and friends. I also feel terrible for Petgrave. I'm sure the last thing he needs on top of the tragedy is being accused of killing the man. 

That said, I have no problem with people asking the question. But a big problem with people just accusing the guy without seeing a transcript of the statement he gave to investigators and  not knowing anything other than seeing a video from one angle that doesn't tell the whole story. 

[nemesis8679]

I'd also like to note that although USA Hockey doesn't mandate neck guards (although they "highly recommend" wearing one... seems like some legal-liability theory they're testing, not fully wanting to take one side or the other), PAHL and PIHL both do mandate them. That said, I can count on one hand the times I saw this enforced in PAHL, and I've never seen it enforced in PIHL (not surprising, I guess, in a league where charging is never called and full-force checks are seemingly legal 5 or 6 seconds after the puck is moved). 

I have said for years that if something unfortunate happened, not even a death but a serious neck cut, there would be lawsuits against the league, personal lawsuits against the officials, the team's board, every coach on the bench, etc. For a school team it would include the school district, the athletic director (I'm not even sure most school athletic directors are even aware the school has a hockey team), etc. 

Knowing this, you would think the leagues, the boards, and the schools would be adamant that this rule be enforced. If I'm the coach, the kids wear them or sorry, you don't go on the ice. Whether I think they work or not (for the record I do- if nothing else it's an obstacle for a blade to get through where even if it does, it will minimize the injury), I'm not taking that liability. I find it nuts that so many do. My kid knows that if I see him on the ice without it, I'll pull him right off. 

If a cut happened, I'm not confident that a rink EMS person would even know where to begin to help in that circumstance. Not to mention the independant games where you can do whatever the hell you want and there may or may not even be a medic in the building at all. Better hope someone's parent is a trauma doctor. 

I predict this will now be the flavor of the month with school boards and the leagues. I'll be interested to see how everybody enforces this now, and for how long. I predict the independant teams probably won't enforce it at all, and PAHL and PIHL will enforce it for the next two weeks. Maybe a month. I hope I'm wrong. 

[Saucey]

This just happened a few years ago. 16 yr old bled out on the ice. There was some more additional enforcement by some refs in both PIHL and PAHL and then nothing again.

[Danner27]

7 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

I don't think it was on purpose. A player being a goon and having been suspended or getting a bunch of penalty minutes doesn't equate to assuming he would try to cut someone with a skate. Along with boarding, kicking is one of those things you just don't do. And I don't think he did. What I think happened (keep in mind we're not dealing with a player who is the greatest skater nor the quickest thinker out on the ice) is that he is moving with some speed, gets tripped up, and his legs fly up in the air. He sees Johnson coming towards him and instinctually and clumsily tries brace himself for collision, even maybe to kick his skate out of the way. Because of the how fast this all happened and due to him and Johnson both moving at different speeds, he had about a half-second to decide what was going on. Unfortunately, skate met Johnson's neck. 

I feel awful for Johnson, his family, and teammates and friends. I also feel terrible for Petgrave. I'm sure the last thing he needs on top of the tragedy is being accused of killing the man. 

That said, I have no problem with people asking the question. But a big problem with people just accusing the guy without seeing a transcript of the statement he gave to investigators and  not knowing anything other than seeing a video from one angle that doesn't tell the whole story. 

He played in the ohl - I’m going to guess he’s a very good skater. 

[ANKLEBENDER]

It does not seem accidental and obviously I dont think he intended to kill him.  However it was purposly reckless and that is the type of player he is, especially when reviewing his history. 

I agree 100% with the original poster with his actions after the incident. He knew what he did and that he was guilty, he literally & figuratively distances himself from the crime. Detectives talk about this subconscous reaction all the time.

I don't know what can be "proved" and what laws govern here, but in general it seems like negligent manslaughter

[nemesis8679]

5 hours ago, ANKLEBENDER said:

It does not seem accidental and obviously I dont think he intended to kill him.  However it was purposly reckless and that is the type of player he is, especially when reviewing his history. 

I agree 100% with the original poster with his actions after the incident. He knew what he did and that he was guilty, he literally & figuratively distances himself from the crime. Detectives talk about this subconscous reaction all the time.

I don't know what can be "proved" and what laws govern here, but in general it seems like negligent manslaughter

He did distance himself. I would've, too, probably. While it's true a guilty person might do that, they also might not. Taken on its own, that means nothing. 

Many times these freak-accident kind of things look or appear bizarre, or don't play out how we logically think they would, because the circumstance itself is bizarre. It's how accidents happen. 

Only Petgrave knows 100% guaranteed whether he meant to do it or not. But I still think if we're basing assumptions on a video from one angle, there's nothing there to say it was intentional. Saying about "the type of player he is" means nothing here. There's many, many players of that type and has been and will be. If that were a Lady Byng nominee instead of Petgrave, would we be having this conversation? 

[dazedandconfused]

35 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

Many times these freak-accident kind of things look or appear bizarre, or don't play out how we logically think they would, because the circumstance itself is bizarre. It's how accidents happen.

That's a great way to describe it. I haven't watched it because I already flinch any time I see skates flying in any age group game.

 

36 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

He did distance himself. I would've, too, probably. While it's true a guilty person might do that, they also might not.

If you've watched enough Law and Order, a lot of perps like to be a part of the action like the arsonist who stays around to watch.

[nemesis8679]

9 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

If you've watched enough Law and Order, a lot of perps like to be a part of the action like the arsonist who stays around to watch.

I could point out that unfortunately what happened wasn't part of a fiction television drama. 

[ANKLEBENDER]

All above are true and possible. I do think the 1st people interviewed by investagators would've been the officials on the ice. They're the ones responsible for the game and watching things the fans are not. I have not looked to find a scoresheet online, but I see a lot of you are good at finding this info. Was there a penalty? ie...were they calling a match for kicking? did the linesman see his skate get clipped coming across the blueline while watching for the offsides? They had to suspend the game and call a supervisor and report what they saw. Is Petgrave going to be in the lineup for the next game? What did the league do after their review of the incident?

There is also better video over there in the arena than we have access too.

After this, the investigators are going to go to players and anyone esle who may have info and look up his history, which 100% matters if they are going to build a case against him.

The invstigators will know what the deal was once they do all this and interview Petgrave himself. 

 

[Danner27]

Watching that version slowed down - there never was contact with AJ’s teamate as his family states. Petgrave actually avoids the contact with no problem. There  is intent imo, add the players history - I’m now convinced. 

[nemesis8679]

By the same token, Johnson's own teammates, who were at or on the ice and know more about hockey than anybody on this forum, are sticking by Petgrave not having done this on purpose. 

 

In a statement released on the day of the incident, the Panthers, who play in the Elite Ice Hockey League, said the death was a “freak accident” and they were “devastated”.

But in response to claims on social media that Petgrave had deliberately kicked Johnson, Panthers player Victor Bjorkung made his own statement, saying he did not blame him for the incident.

He told Swedish newspaper Expressen: “What Matt (Petgrave) has experienced is unimaginable. I don’t understand how some people can behave, it’s inhuman. I have texted him and expressed how I feel about everything and I support him. No one in our team thinks it’s his fault, quite the opposite. We are a big family and he can contact us if he needs it. I was a couple of metres away, so if anyone experienced it as it really was, then it was me.”

[ANKLEBENDER]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-67419951

[nemesis8679]

9 hours ago, ANKLEBENDER said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-67419951

Interesting, even though Johnson's own teammates were supportive of Petgrave.