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2 hours ago, Mysonisagoalie said:

The PIHL website has a whole section about the SMFF. Click on the events tab and it is at the bottom of the drop down menu.

It wasn't updated During the tournament. They just updated it today... Nowhere on the site would you have known who was playing Wednesday. 

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2 hours ago, Mysonisagoalie said:

The PIHL website has a whole section about the SMFF. Click on the events tab and it is at the bottom of the drop down menu.

Yeah, they updated it long after the games were over. On Wednesday they didn’t even have results from all the pool games listed yet even though the playoffs were that night. They finally got around to updating it sometime late yesterday. 

The point is, maybe they should have promoted it a bit better.

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10 hours ago, powderfinger said:

Yeah, they updated it long after the games were over. On Wednesday they didn’t even have results from all the pool games listed yet even though the playoffs were that night. They finally got around to updating it sometime late yesterday. 

The point is, maybe they should have promoted it a bit better.

When I have to do a Google search to find out who won the tournament because the PIHL website had not even updated the game scores from Monday (three days after the games were over), that's a problem.  And it's inexcusable.  

Edited by fafa fohi
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On 9/14/2019 at 8:38 AM, fafa fohi said:

When I have to do a Google search to find out who won the tournament because the PIHL website had not even updated the game scores from Monday (three days after the games were over), that's a problem.  And it's inexcusable.  

It's amazing to me in this day and age that we can't get updates on games in some reasonably quick manner. I could understand a short delay for a sort of quality assurance review, but it seems that, especially where there are official league scorekeepers (as there are in PIHL games, at least in the regular season) there shouldn't be any barrier to very quick website updates. I don't need in-progress updates of games, but for tournaments you want to know these things.

I have never been able to understand why amateur tournaments don't provide these updates, either. It would make it much easier for teams to know when and where to be for consolation/championship games and the like.

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4 hours ago, Lifelongbender said:

I have never been able to understand why amateur tournaments don't provide these updates, either. It would make it much easier for teams to know when and where to be for consolation/championship games and the like.

Tourney Machine is an app that we have used for tournaments.

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Stats, stats, stats. PIHL has payed reps at every game running clock and scoresheet. I love stats.. I like following all the players that I have gotten to know over several years. I hate when stats are wrong. I know mistakes happen but when going over game sheets online and seeing first goals of games being listed as empty net goals and other obvious errors I become a little irked. All in all, over the course of a season, I think things even out as far as a player getting credit for their merits. Some errors may benefit them and some may not. 

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2 hours ago, dropthepuck said:

Stats, stats, stats. PIHL has payed reps at every game running clock and scoresheet. I love stats.. I like following all the players that I have gotten to know over several years. I hate when stats are wrong. I know mistakes happen but when going over game sheets online and seeing first goals of games being listed as empty net goals and other obvious errors I become a little irked. All in all, over the course of a season, I think things even out as far as a player getting credit for their merits. Some errors may benefit them and some may not. 

one way to solve this is to publish the actual PDF scan of each scoresheet.

If the PIHL is going to pay people to do this work, it ought to be correct and the scorekeepers should be accurate.

 

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31 minutes ago, Saucey said:

Don't the refs tell the score keepers which player gets credit?

That is correct. The score keepers have no authority. They put down on the score sheet what they are told by the referees.

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I was referring to the way stats are listed on score sheets not on how refs report scoring to scorekeepers. One game Monday night only had shots for first period and just goals scored for second and third. I have no involvement with either team but I'm sure the goalies aren't to pleased with their terrible save percentage that gets recorded. get it right!

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18 hours ago, Paul Baxter said:

one way to solve this is to publish the actual PDF scan of each scoresheet.

If the PIHL is going to pay people to do this work, it ought to be correct and the scorekeepers should be accurate.

 

Paul is 100% right. PAHL games use parents to keep score, and in that case (that is, with volunteers) a bit of error is expected. In the case of PIHL games, however, they have paid scorekeepers and those games should be correctly scored. It's true that they record what the refs say regarding goals and assists, and if they correctly record an incorrect attribution there, that isn't the fault of the scorekeeper. But one would think that the point of paying scorekeepers is to ensure accuracy and fairness.

If that's the case, it shouldn't be an issue to post a scan of the scoresheet, in the interests of full transparency. (I get that this is an extra step in the process, but it's a pretty small one, and it would enable parents and coaches to review the statistics as entered into the computer. God knows there are plenty of both who think the game is rigged against their player(s).)

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5 hours ago, Lifelongbender said:

Paul is 100% right. PAHL games use parents to keep score, and in that case (that is, with volunteers) a bit of error is expected. In the case of PIHL games, however, they have paid scorekeepers and those games should be correctly scored. It's true that they record what the refs say regarding goals and assists, and if they correctly record an incorrect attribution there, that isn't the fault of the scorekeeper. But one would think that the point of paying scorekeepers is to ensure accuracy and fairness.

If that's the case, it shouldn't be an issue to post a scan of the scoresheet, in the interests of full transparency. (I get that this is an extra step in the process, but it's a pretty small one, and it would enable parents and coaches to review the statistics as entered into the computer. God knows there are plenty of both who think the game is rigged against their player(s).

Why does a scorekeeper getting paid entitle parents to the score sheet? Some organizations pay kids in PAHL to keep score, are they entitled to those, too? What need does a parent have for that score sheet? 

There is a certain amount of discretion in shot counting. You can't see them all and the scorekeeper gets a different view than the parent in the stand. So....when the goalie mom clicking away on her shot counter in the stands disagrees with the number on the posted score sheet, posting the actual score sheet makes everything better how? I just don't see how this makes anyone more convinced that games aren't rigged, or how this helps in the interest of 'transparency'. Those folks who think that games are rigged are going to continue to think that, regardless, and we don't really need parents obsessively following stats. Already enough obsession.

PIHL can't find enough people to do it now for that huge 20 payout per game. 

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21 minutes ago, Saucey said:

Why does a scorekeeper getting paid entitle parents to the score sheet? Some organizations pay kids in PAHL to keep score, are they entitled to those, too? What need does a parent have for that score sheet? 

There is a certain amount of discretion in shot counting. You can't see them all and the scorekeeper gets a different view than the parent in the stand. So....when the goalie mom clicking away on her shot counter in the stands disagrees with the number on the posted score sheet, posting the actual score sheet makes everything better how? I just don't see how this makes anyone more convinced that games aren't rigged, or how this helps in the interest of 'transparency'. Those folks who think that games are rigged are going to continue to think that, regardless, and we don't really need parents obsessively following stats. Already enough obsession.

PIHL can't find enough people to do it now for that huge 20 payout per game. 

Ah the good ole days of being a parent scorekeeper.  Nothing better than a shot ringing off the pipe and goalie mom screaming because I didn't count the shot.

Good times

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It’s always interesting how a thread morphs into a totally different topic. 

If you want to see the actual scoresheet, ask your team manager. They are given a copy after the game. 

In regard to stats, if it isn’t coming from the ref, it shouldn’t be recorded. Yes, I’m saying that shots on goal shouldn’t be recorded on the scoresheet or put up on the board. Too many people keeping score or running the clock, as well as the parents in the stands, have no idea what a shot in goal actually is. It’s the most inaccurate stat in the game, but PIHL does a better job than most. 

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15 hours ago, Saucey said:

Why does a scorekeeper getting paid entitle parents to the score sheet? Some organizations pay kids in PAHL to keep score, are they entitled to those, too? What need does a parent have for that score sheet? 

There is a certain amount of discretion in shot counting. You can't see them all and the scorekeeper gets a different view than the parent in the stand. So....when the goalie mom clicking away on her shot counter in the stands disagrees with the number on the posted score sheet, posting the actual score sheet makes everything better how? I just don't see how this makes anyone more convinced that games aren't rigged, or how this helps in the interest of 'transparency'. Those folks who think that games are rigged are going to continue to think that, regardless, and we don't really need parents obsessively following stats. Already enough obsession.

PIHL can't find enough people to do it now for that huge 20 payout per game. 

Just suggesting that posting the scoresheet would at least make it easier to understand what had happened. I tend to agree with you that the scoresheet isn't going to satisfy anyone, just make it clearer. Having been a scorekeeper MANY times for amateur games, and having stood in the penalty box and helped count shots for various PIHL scorekeepers, I understand it's a difficult situation. Personally I don't care about statistics on a piece of paper at all - I know if my own kids played well because I was watching - but it shouldn't be an issue to show the scoresheet to everyone if it at least makes the process more transparent. At any rate you can see the shot counts on the PIHL website for every game.

I guess I don't understand why most people would want to see them, but I also don't understand why it is an issue to let people see them. I get copies of them from the business managers on the teams I coach on, anyway, as Ynot02 suggested.

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1 hour ago, Lifelongbender said:

Just suggesting that posting the scoresheet would at least make it easier to understand what had happened. I tend to agree with you that the scoresheet isn't going to satisfy anyone, just make it clearer. Having been a scorekeeper MANY times for amateur games, and having stood in the penalty box and helped count shots for various PIHL scorekeepers, I understand it's a difficult situation. Personally I don't care about statistics on a piece of paper at all - I know if my own kids played well because I was watching - but it shouldn't be an issue to show the scoresheet to everyone if it at least makes the process more transparent. At any rate you can see the shot counts on the PIHL website for every game.

I guess I don't understand why most people would want to see them, but I also don't understand why it is an issue to let people see them. I get copies of them from the business managers on the teams I coach on, anyway, as Ynot02 suggested.

As a coach, you need the info to help coach. That I get. Which period are we letting up lots of shots, etc. Parents, not so much.

There isn't functionality to scan and add for most of these programs, anyway, and the programs I've used are so cumbersome, adding in shot totals, etc, as team manager was such a pain. What is being asked for these volunteer and low paying jobs keeps increasing every year. I vote we not add to the burdens.

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2 hours ago, Lifelongbender said:

Just suggesting that posting the scoresheet would at least make it easier to understand what had happened. I tend to agree with you that the scoresheet isn't going to satisfy anyone, just make it clearer. Having been a scorekeeper MANY times for amateur games, and having stood in the penalty box and helped count shots for various PIHL scorekeepers, I understand it's a difficult situation. Personally I don't care about statistics on a piece of paper at all - I know if my own kids played well because I was watching - but it shouldn't be an issue to show the scoresheet to everyone if it at least makes the process more transparent. At any rate you can see the shot counts on the PIHL website for every game.

I guess I don't understand why most people would want to see them, but I also don't understand why it is an issue to let people see them. I get copies of them from the business managers on the teams I coach on, anyway, as Ynot02 suggested.

I guess I don't understand why most people would want to see them, - Because some parents are crazy, that's why.  

but I also don't understand why it is an issue to let people see them.  - See answer above..........

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Digital scoresheets  are available for every game on PIHL website. Click on the final tab for any game and all info is available. If PIHL is going to list all players stats the way they do and rank players accordingly the process of recording this information should be done correctly. The news media uses these stats also, to list league leaders and give recognition to deserving players.

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