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Preds birth year teams all playing independent schedule


RJUSHL
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15 minutes ago, Jack Handey said:

I agree, but I ain't the one doin' the equating, ace.  They are.

So what's your solution to minor year BY teams leaving PAHL and going independent? Is there anything PAHL should be doing that would help the situation?

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23 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

So what's your solution to minor year BY teams leaving

Au revoir; we bid thee farewell; godspeed; good-luck.  It's happened before and will surely happen again so long as there are smoke blowing coaches to drive the demand.  There are hundreds of teams in PAHL and changing alignment because 2-3 minor BY teams left is tantamount to the tail trying to wag the dog.  A final parting thought, we'll see your independent kids back in various Pittsburgh beer league in just a few years.  

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33 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

So what's your solution to minor year BY teams leaving PAHL and going independent? Is there anything PAHL should be doing that would help the situation?

 The birth year thing grew out of Tier 1, because of the Midget level, complicated by USAH using a calendar year vs. school year.  Coaches/scouts wanted to see the 15U's.  That is the year they wanted to focus on.  Many other sports use graduation year  once you get to the older ages. 

Once the legitimate college/junior bound levels started to do that, everybody  else wants to keep up with the Jones. 

My solution for the older groups....  the districts should mandate that to be eligible for playoffs, you must be associated with a recognized USAH Tier I or Tier II league.

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1 hour ago, Jack Handey said:

I agree, but I ain't the one doin' the equating, ace.  They are.

Who is "they" ace?

I have yet to come across a single parent / player / family that equates anything PPE does to Tier 2 AA hockey.  You don't have to be a rocket scientist to recognize the differences in player skill, instruction and player development, cost, travel, etc.  Some of that stuff may come from the "faux AAA" teams but certainly not AA teams let alone PAHL AA teams.

And what does your comment say to the many, many Tier 2 AA teams that don't have a PPE equivalent?

This conversation is getting ridiculous.

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The market would be better served by concentrating on growing the game, rather than just saying let's have BY. As it is, we have a few dads running around trying to collect kids for the few programs that develop from day one, making their AA BY team.

 More kids playing, bigger market, bigger pool to increase competitiveness. Everyone wants BY around here. But when you do that, you end up with a handful of teams that are actually top to bottom AA. Maybe you can't compete at Mid Ams unless your program has a mite program. There is some sort of assumption that the independent teams leaving are good AA teams. That isn't always the case. If you need to pay the bills, at some point any body will do.

I keep saying, you want proper BY the way the bigger hockey markets do it, you have to increase the number of AA player talent in the area.

 

 

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4 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

So what's your solution to minor year BY teams leaving PAHL and going independent? Is there anything PAHL should be doing that would help the situation?

Maybe ask them and find out why they are leaving instead of speculating on here?

A few BY teams leaving for a season isn’t going to affect PAHL in the slightest. 

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46 minutes ago, BeaverFalls said:

Maybe ask them and find out why they are leaving instead of speculating on here?

A few BY teams leaving for a season isn’t going to affect PAHL in the slightest. 

Believe me I have asked. Many of these BY teams don’t want to compete in a AA division where most of the teams they play are a year older and bigger. So their options are to play in an “A” division or go independent. They feel that if they play A major in PAHL they’ll lose credibility and won’t be able to grab up second team Pens kids when they go down to one team or other borderline Vengeance or Esmark players. 
 

And I do think three 2010 BY teams going this route does significantly impact PAHL AA hockey. More and more teams are going to start doing this when they hit their first year of 12U hockey. It’s going to be increasingly common and these teams aren’t coming back to PAHL. 

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3 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

Believe me I have asked. Many of these BY teams don’t want to compete in a AA division where most of the teams they play are a year older and bigger. So their options are to play in an “A” division or go independent. They feel that if they play A major in PAHL they’ll lose credibility and won’t be able to grab up second team Pens kids when they go down to one team or other borderline Vengeance or Esmark players. 
 

And I do think three 2010 BY teams going this route does significantly impact PAHL AA hockey. More and more teams are going to start doing this when they hit their first year of 12U hockey. It’s going to be increasingly common and these teams aren’t coming back to PAHL. 

I can't believe I'm going down this rabbit hole of peewee hockey talk but what happened to the Southpointe 10 birthyear team? They were pretty good last year.  Are they still PAHL or did they go independent too?  If PAHL are they slotting AA OR A major?

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8 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

I can't believe I'm going down this rabbit hole of peewee hockey talk but what happened to the Southpointe 10 birthyear team? They were pretty good last year.  Are they still PAHL or did they go independent too?  If PAHL are they slotting AA OR A major?

Independent AA

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I don't want to see PAHL cater to something that isn't a good way to develop. Parents dictating structure based on ignorance and dad's ego is not good for hockey around here. Maybe there needs to be more of an outreach to educate younger parents. PAHL can do that. PAHL organizations can do that.

Neither of my boys played in that minor BY model. They either played up or in A minor. That stigma associated with playing A minor in your rising year is a new phenomena, and it's not good. When my boys came up, it was normal to be on team 2 or 3 every other year and AA major your second year. You had to be really good, or born in a low BY to play AA both years. The kids I see coming out of that minor year are timid with checking. PAHL created that level to make it safer to check and it seems to just delay the learning process.

Making choices on where to play and levels based on theoretical kids you want to recruit the next season is terrible. What does that say about what those coaches think of the kids that they have? They are wanting to cut kids on their current roster. Great way to spend your time and money, folks. Serve your current players in the season you are in. Develop what you have over wishing for something different. 

My boys were not always top players.They play for an organization who develops. They have had good and bad coaches, winning and losing seasons.. They've had some private instruction in the off season. They are naturally good athletes. They love it. Let them play where they fall, let them develop. Kids grow and change. They play in divisions with a lot of bad teams. They continue to get better.

I don't think you are going to see change with PAHL going to BY. 

It all starts to wind down at midget, folks. Enjoy the moment. All that chasing chasing chasing...I am on the back end of watching people do that. I don't see those kids who are running around with these independent teams becoming significantly better hockey players. That has to be PAHL's end game. Not stroking parents. Develop the players.

Edited by Saucey
Correct bad sentence structure
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13 minutes ago, Saucey said:

It all starts to wind down at midget, folks. Enjoy the moment. All that chasing chasing chasing...I am on the back end of watching people do that. I don't see those kids who are running around with these independent teams becoming significantly better hockey players. That has to be PAHL's end game. Not stroking parents. Develop the players.

You are right on here Saucey!  Most people don't realize how quickly it will be over when they are in the moment.  I've seen it from a PAHL schedule and an independent schedule.  The travel and hotel costs are not worth the extra expense when the teams you are playing are not any better than the PAHL teams you could have played within an hour of home. I like the PAHL schedule with 4 out of town tournaments.

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Past few posts are very good. You're right that it all is pretty ridiculous how some people view all this. But if I'm being honest, I just don't see that many negatives about having a AA minor division, especially at 12U. I actually think it could be a good thing for the development of the kids in that division. It doesn't mean PAHL is going to a fully birth year model. It just means that they are adapting a bit.

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19 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

Past few posts are very good. You're right that it all is pretty ridiculous how some people view all this. But if I'm being honest, I just don't see that many negatives about having a AA minor division, especially at 12U. I actually think it could be a good thing for the development of the kids in that division. It doesn't mean PAHL is going to a fully birth year model. It just means that they are adapting a bit.

This 100% correct, not every division should have BY, but having ONLY AA Major and AA Minor from 10U up should help to mitigate the number of teams making the choice to go independent.  Everything below AA would still be mixed BY.  This would also give minor kids something to work towards when trying out if it is a "deep" organization where a talented minor player wouldn't get a shot at the major team due to a factor such as size.  Just a thought.

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34 minutes ago, forbin said:

In this scenario would it mean that ALL minor pure BY teams would be obligated to play in the AA Minor division? What happens if the team is weak? Seeing that in a couple of cases so far this year....

No, only those minor BY teams that want to pursue playing at AA.  In this scenario if you are a pure minor BY but are not AA then play at A major, etc.  There would still be a placement process for those teams with what I proposed above. 

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36 minutes ago, forbin said:

In this scenario would it mean that ALL minor pure BY teams would be obligated to play in the AA Minor division? What happens if the team is weak? Seeing that in a couple of cases so far this year....

Problem becomes the AA.  Too many parents feel it is beneath their kids to play A.  By playing independent you can hid a weak BY team with a weak schedule and still call it AA.  Some come back to PAHL but most don't. 

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5 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Problem becomes the AA.  Too many parents feel it is beneath their kids to play A.  By playing independent you can hid a weak BY team with a weak schedule and still call it AA.  Some come back to PAHL but most don't. 

This is pretty much what this whole post is calling for. Creating a whole new AA division, specially catered to 1-2 teams because mommy and daddy can bear to have their kid not called AA for a season.  Listen, if you’re that worried that your kid as a 11 year old can’t even share the same sheet of ice with a 12 year old, regardless of level, that’s a big problem. 
 

Regardless if programs want to go full independent to avoid it, that’s their choice. An expensive and busy one but who cares from anyone in the league or not on the predators pee wee team.  We’ve given about 100 scenarios why it’s generally a bad idea and what might work but RJ only will accept the creation of a new division to cater to one team, allegedly in the name of saving pahl hockey.


 

 

Edited by BeaverFalls
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2 hours ago, forbin said:

In this scenario would it mean that ALL minor pure BY teams would be obligated to play in the AA Minor division? What happens if the team is weak? Seeing that in a couple of cases so far this year....

No it wouldn't mean that at all. There are quite a few minor BY teams that just wouldn't be good enough for that division and they would play in any of the other A or B divisions.

Edit: Sorry I responded before I saw Corsi's response.

Edited by RJUSHL
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1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Problem becomes the AA.  Too many parents feel it is beneath their kids to play A.  By playing independent you can hid a weak BY team with a weak schedule and still call it AA.  Some come back to PAHL but most don't. 

You're absolutely right and having AA Major and AA Minor divisions at 12U would help solve this. Not perfect, but help some. But you're right though, teams that go independent may never come back.

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1 hour ago, BeaverFalls said:

This is pretty much what this whole post is calling for. Creating a whole new AA division, specially catered to 1-2 teams because mommy and daddy can bear to have their kid not called AA for a season.  Listen, if you’re that worried that your kid as a 11 year old can’t even share the same sheet of ice with a 12 year old, regardless of level, that’s a big problem. 
 

Regardless if programs want to go full independent to avoid it, that’s their choice. An expensive and busy one but who cares from anyone in the league or not on the predators pee wee team.  We’ve given about 100 scenarios why it’s generally a bad idea and what might work but RJ only will accept the creation of a new division to cater to one team, allegedly in the name of saving pahl hockey.

I'm just throwing some ideas around. I thought that was the point of this forum. And I'm not talking about one or two teams. I'm talking about the entire landscape of PAHL and trends I'm seeing.

I'd rather adapt than shout at the wind (BY teams) and ask it to change directions.

Thanks to everyone for helping me think through this issue. Some good thoughts in here.

Edited by RJUSHL
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