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3 NHLers coaching 2011 Vengeance?

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4 hours ago, Hockeyaintathang said:

When are tryouts for this team? I have a 2011 and 2009 looking to make the switch from mt Lebanon to AA or AAA birth year team. 

I think you were the same guy posting in the other thread. I would look at SHAHA to see if they are putting together an A major birthyear team before you think Vengeance - for multiple reasons. 

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Thank you, I have heard good things about SHAHA but was really interested in seeing the talent out there at both the peewee and squirt level for my boys.  I have only been in the area for a little over a year so im learning Pittsburghs way of hockey. Vengence is no good? 

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18 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

before you think Vengeance - for multiple reasons. 

Bitterness or factual information? That's the main issue with a lot of the posts on here. How do you tell the difference?

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5 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

Bitterness or factual information? That's the main issue with a lot of the posts on here. How do you tell the difference?

Has nothing to do with Vengeance specifically. A couple reasons:

 

1) it looks like your kids are looking to move to AA which means unless there was something strange or your kid excelled like crazy it would be really hard to leap right onto a AAA team

 

2) multiple things documented on this site about the quality of AAA hockey at the younger ages, the costs and travel involved especially with multiple kids.

 

3). The fact that your child will likely be developed as a part of a birthyear team within PAHL but more likely to be treated like a horse to be replaced at AAA

 

4) The fact that, looking at the 2010 vengeance team they aren't competitive in PAHL

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On 2/8/2020 at 12:42 PM, Hockeyaintathang said:

When are tryouts for this team? I have a 2011 and 2009 looking to make the switch from mt Lebanon to AA or AAA birth year team. 

The Vengeance tryouts are usually early.  

The 08 and 09 teams turned out to be better than the 10 team.  Essentially, most of the top 10 mites stayed with the Pens.  However, they are still a very good 10 team in comparison to other PAHL 10 teams.  Just not as good as the older two teams.

Too early to tell how the 11 team will turn out.  

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Thank you aaaaHockey, you brought up some valid points. The more I reaseach and hear the more im realizing AAA hockey at age 9 isnt good for alot of reason and shows high burn out rates. Im looking into SHAHA, preds and Rink Rats. I like the birth year concept so im hoping to find a good birth year team for my boys to be apart of.

 

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On 2/10/2020 at 9:14 PM, Hockeyaintathang said:

Thank you aaaaHockey, you brought up some valid points. The more I reaseach and hear the more im realizing AAA hockey at age 9 isnt good for alot of reason and shows high burn out rates. Im looking into SHAHA, preds and Rink Rats. I like the birth year concept so im hoping to find a good birth year team for my boys to be apart of.

 

Almost all final rankings almost done (Few games left) on pahl website. Check out for your 09 the AA division which are mostly 2009 BY teams if you want to see their records 

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On 2/10/2020 at 9:14 PM, Hockeyaintathang said:

Thank you aaaaHockey, you brought up some valid points. The more I reaseach and hear the more im realizing AAA hockey at age 9 isnt good for alot of reason and shows high burn out rates. Im looking into SHAHA, preds and Rink Rats. I like the birth year concept so im hoping to find a good birth year team for my boys to be apart of.

 

At this age, the worst thing you can do is turn your nose up to your son playing PAHL.  With the right organization and right coaches, your son will develop both from a social and hockey acumen standpoint.  There's lots of anabolic parents out there that feel their kid needs to wear the extra A, don't fall into that trap.  Convenience, cost and extent of travel are also things you should really consider.

 

Plenty of years ahead to consider AAA hockey as your son develops.

Edited by fafa fohi
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47 minutes ago, fafa fohi said:

At this age, the worst thing you can do is turn your nose up to your son playing PAHL.  With the right organization and right coaches, your son will develop both from a social and hockey acumen standpoint.  There's lots of anabolic parents out there that feel their kid needs to wear the extra A, don't fall into that trap.  Convenience, cost and extent of travel are also things you should really consider.

 

Plenty of years ahead to consider AAA hockey as your son develops.

Finding the right coach is the hard part. 

As for cost, the Vengeance fees are reasonable but they do travel a lot.  So, keep that in mind.  Zieler does a very nice job with the kids.  So, if I was on the fence without a clear option I may see if my 09 could make the team.

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6 hours ago, fafa fohi said:

At this age, the worst thing you can do is turn your nose up to your son playing PAHL.  With the right organization and right coaches, your son will develop both from a social and hockey acumen standpoint.  There's lots of anabolic parents out there that feel their kid needs to wear the extra A, don't fall into that trap.  Convenience, cost and extent of travel are also things you should really consider.

 

Plenty of years ahead to consider AAA hockey as your son develops.

good advice and very true! 

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8 hours ago, twoboys said:

Finding the right coach is the hard part. 

As for cost, the Vengeance fees are reasonable but they do travel a lot.  So, keep that in mind.  Zieler does a very nice job with the kids.  So, if I was on the fence without a clear option I may see if my 09 could make the team.

Not saying it never happens but 99% of the time if you have been around PAHL for a year or more someone would approach you (your parents) about trying out for a AAA team If you are standing out enough to look that good. Exception might be "AAA" squirt year 1. I doubt many kids show up cold turkey and make a team.

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11 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

Not saying it never happens but 99% of the time if you have been around PAHL for a year or more someone would approach you (your parents) about trying out for a AAA team If you are standing out enough to look that good. Exception might be "AAA" squirt year 1. I doubt many kids show up cold turkey and make a team.

Just because someone approaches you doesn't mean your kid is AAA talent. Sometimes the team needs to fill a roster. A lot of times. I know kids on the AAA teams that have never made a AA roster in PAHL. And they've tried out at multiple programs over the years. I don't think all of those programs are misjudging that badly. Mom and dad are misjudging badly and there is someone happy to take their money.

If your kid is dominating PAHL AA and seems to need more to progress, then start thinking about AAA. And remember that dominating as a squirt is not the same as dominating as a Bantam. The coaches of these faux AAA teams are not the ones to ask. Again, they may need to fill a roster. People that have no skin in the game are better. People in your current program that have older kids playing in AA or AAA. People who evaluate your kid in your program. The person you take privates from. In fact, these people may begin to express interest in working with your child because they see something more in him or her.

I see the kids who get cut from the AAA programs later. Frequently, in their head they are elite and always will be. So they are nightmares if they come back to PAHL. So much better than their teammates, PAHL is beneath them. They make sure everyone knows it. They don't play a team game, because everyone sucks but them. Or they exit hockey all together because they thought they were going to the show and now see no more reason to play. Or got burned out.

I think we do a lot more harm than good labeling young kids as elite sometimes.

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17 minutes ago, Saucey said:

Just because someone approaches you doesn't mean your kid is AAA talent. Sometimes the team needs to fill a roster. A lot of times. I know kids on the AAA teams that have never made a AA roster in PAHL. And they've tried out at multiple programs over the years. I don't think all of those programs are misjudging that badly. Mom and dad are misjudging badly and there is someone happy to take their money.

If your kid is dominating PAHL AA and seems to need more to progress, then start thinking about AAA. And remember that dominating as a squirt is not the same as dominating as a Bantam. The coaches of these faux AAA teams are not the ones to ask. Again, they may need to fill a roster. People that have no skin in the game are better. People in your current program that have older kids playing in AA or AAA. People who evaluate your kid in your program. The person you take privates from. In fact, these people may begin to express interest in working with your child because they see something more in him or her.

I see the kids who get cut from the AAA programs later. Frequently, in their head they are elite and always will be. So they are nightmares if they come back to PAHL. So much better than their teammates, PAHL is beneath them. They make sure everyone knows it. They don't play a team game, because everyone sucks but them. Or they exit hockey all together because they thought they were going to the show and now see no more reason to play. Or got burned out.

I think we do a lot more harm than good labeling young kids as elite sometimes.

Interesting you bemoan labeling yet your entire post was mocking kids that “return to PAHL”. Your limited experience with maybe 1 or 2 players that previously played Tier 1 is not an adequate sample size to make a judgement. I’m basing this off of your previous posts that clearly show a limited knowledge of the wider scope of the hockey world. Also, let’s limit the criticism of coaches from any team. I have criticized coaches for limited abilities but I also have the experience that allows me to make an informed evaluation. The blanket statements about Tier 1 players “frequently” believing they’re too good for your kid only show insecurity. And saying coaches of the teams are not the ones to ask to evaluate your player but to ask parents? That shows a very flawed way of thinking and shows that you’re more than likely one of the parents that coaches hate. Coaches will cut kids based on the parents. Maybe you think it’s wrong, but nobody should be forced to take a player of the parents are impossible and constantly causing problems. 
 

Maybe just let people make their own decisions. Plenty of coaches below Tier 1 or 2 waste people’s money. If you don’t provide quality training with the resources available, teach the game properly, play down levels to ensure success, etc, you’re not providing value. Your personal failings aren’t guaranteed for everyone else. 
 

just my opinion

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1 hour ago, The King said:

Interesting you bemoan labeling yet your entire post was mocking kids that “return to PAHL”. Your limited experience with maybe 1 or 2 players that previously played Tier 1 is not an adequate sample size to make a judgement. I’m basing this off of your previous posts that clearly show a limited knowledge of the wider scope of the hockey world. Also, let’s limit the criticism of coaches from any team. I have criticized coaches for limited abilities but I also have the experience that allows me to make an informed evaluation. The blanket statements about Tier 1 players “frequently” believing they’re too good for your kid only show insecurity. And saying coaches of the teams are not the ones to ask to evaluate your player but to ask parents? That shows a very flawed way of thinking and shows that you’re more than likely one of the parents that coaches hate. Coaches will cut kids based on the parents. Maybe you think it’s wrong, but nobody should be forced to take a player of the parents are impossible and constantly causing problems. 
 

Maybe just let people make their own decisions. Plenty of coaches below Tier 1 or 2 waste people’s money. If you don’t provide quality training with the resources available, teach the game properly, play down levels to ensure success, etc, you’re not providing value. Your personal failings aren’t guaranteed for everyone else. 
 

just my opinion

My kids have also played with some kids who returned to PAHL from AAA and were just fine. You make some valid points, some had nightmare parents or the kid was, and yes, I don't think you should get to play a team sport if you don't play with the team, so if that was the reason for the cut, fine. Some simply weren't a AAA player to begin with, or didn't remain one.

I find it interesting that you assume personal failings on my part when you know nothing about me, but whatever. That is your MO, to attack personally when you disagree. At least you did it in a more constructive manner this time, so kudos. So I think it is fair to point out that you were once associated with an independent program trying to play AAA, yes? So I have bias, you have that bias. And you believe that USA hockey is all a scam and a conspiracy, as you like to point out. We are all suckers to you. 

Fine to let people make their own decisions. I have no problems with parents. They want what is best for their child. We are programmed that way. People in support of all these AAA teams floating around always say, it's their money. People should be able to spend their money however they want.

But frequently it isn't a level playing field when these decisions are made. I do have a problem with people who just want to field teams, people who know better and take advantage. I don't think that is buyer beware...if the parents don't know hockey and the person recruiting does, that is not a level playing field. Undoubtedly, this happens. People taking advantage of the parents' desire to believe their child is the best and the rest of the world doesn't see it. For money. Sometimes so the recruiting coach's kid gets a AAA team. How many of these independent programs we have floating around here began for one kid? How many times where we see teams that don't have enough AAA talent to field one, but move forward anyway, filling in with who they can? I just have a hard time trusting the people who want my money telling me my kid is elite and think trying to find someone with no skin in the game to evaluate your kid is better.  

You get crap training in PAHL, at least it wasn't part of a con where you are being told your kid is elite, and you spent a lot less there. Same cycle repeats over and over. There's always a new crop of squirt parents the next year.

I have no problem with people wanting to play AAA hockey. But can't we wait until they are older to label them that way? Wait to treat them like mini pro adults? Wait to have them treat a sport like a job? How many kids are there who are actually elite?

Just my opinion.

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1 hour ago, The King said:

Also, let’s limit the criticism of coaches from any team. I have criticized coaches for limited abilities but I also have the experience that allows me to make an informed evaluation.

Lol @The King must have one hell of a resume! Only qualified person on the entire forum. 

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Just to clarify, I also agree that you can be approached by folks who are preying on you for money (tryout money, practice money, faux-AAA team money, etc.)  At the same time, unless you played somewhere remote where there were not the kids to play AA hockey, it's unlikely you would jump from lower than AA (maybe A major 1 in a minor birthyear) to AAA and I stand beside my argument that coaches go out and find these kids and try to recruit them even at the mite level and even at Pens Elite as ridiculous as that is.

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2 hours ago, Saucey said:

My kids have also played with some kids who returned to PAHL from AAA and were just fine. You make some valid points, some had nightmare parents or the kid was, and yes, I don't think you should get to play a team sport if you don't play with the team, so if that was the reason for the cut, fine. Some simply weren't a AAA player to begin with, or didn't remain one.

I find it interesting that you assume personal failings on my part when you know nothing about me, but whatever. That is your MO, to attack personally when you disagree. At least you did it in a more constructive manner this time, so kudos. So I think it is fair to point out that you were once associated with an independent program trying to play AAA, yes? So I have bias, you have that bias. And you believe that USA hockey is all a scam and a conspiracy, as you like to point out. We are all suckers to you. 

Fine to let people make their own decisions. I have no problems with parents. They want what is best for their child. We are programmed that way. People in support of all these AAA teams floating around always say, it's their money. People should be able to spend their money however they want.

But frequently it isn't a level playing field when these decisions are made. I do have a problem with people who just want to field teams, people who know better and take advantage. I don't think that is buyer beware...if the parents don't know hockey and the person recruiting does, that is not a level playing field. Undoubtedly, this happens. People taking advantage of the parents' desire to believe their child is the best and the rest of the world doesn't see it. For money. Sometimes so the recruiting coach's kid gets a AAA team. How many of these independent programs we have floating around here began for one kid? How many times where we see teams that don't have enough AAA talent to field one, but move forward anyway, filling in with who they can? I just have a hard time trusting the people who want my money telling me my kid is elite and think trying to find someone with no skin in the game to evaluate your kid is better.  

You get crap training in PAHL, at least it wasn't part of a con where you are being told your kid is elite, and you spent a lot less there. Same cycle repeats over and over. There's always a new crop of squirt parents the next year.

I have no problem with people wanting to play AAA hockey. But can't we wait until they are older to label them that way? Wait to treat them like mini pro adults? Wait to have them treat a sport like a job? How many kids are there who are actually elite?

Just my opinion.

I’m not in support of or against any particular level of play. I’ve stated many times that preying on people for money is no worse than taking money and it providing the product promised. You and many others have condemned any team that labels itself AAA that isn’t Pens or Esmark. @RegDunlop7 who has let everyone know his impressive playing resume, has been petitioning for all but the players on those 2 programs to play Tier 2. So I’m just responding to the established narrative. My point is, when you’re trying to give pointers to people, stop painting with such a broad brush. You have a very narrow perspective. Who cares what level anyone is labeled? Isn’t it the new culture to eliminate labels? If you think a team is a “faux AAA” team and you think the players on said team think they’re better than your kid And you think the parents are stupid, why do you care enough to come here and point fingers. Let’s say you guys took over and got to reform all levels. All players are where YOU think they should be. Would it matter what the levels were labeled? What if the Pens Elite and Esmark we’re labeled B and the in-house teams in WPA were labeled AAA? Would it change anything? Or would it take personal feelings like yours being changed and paradigms shifting for it to be corrected? 
Here’s another point, if parents are preyed upon, why is the onus not put on the culture to change and the parents to make good decisions? And just because your kid plays in house or Tier 2, that doesn’t mean you made the right decision. You still get fleeced by someone who forms a team for his kids benefit, doesn’t provide the proper skill development, or the discipline you involve your kids in amateur sports for in the first place. Your points are all noted but there much more complex than you realize. 
 

and yes, USA hockey is corrupt and has everything to do with the culture that’s been developed. The fact you can’t see that or realize how they’ve sucked your wallet dry is exactly the way they want it

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2 hours ago, RegDunlop7 said:

Lol @The King must have one hell of a resume! Only qualified person on the entire forum. 

Where do you see that? All I spoke to was my experience. No idea what anyone’s experience is except for reading someone’s previous posts and seeing that their perspective is coming from a novice point of view

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16 minutes ago, The King said:

You and many others have condemned any team that labels itself AAA that isn’t Pens or Esmark. @RegDunlop7 who has let everyone know his impressive playing resume, has been petitioning for all but the players on those 2 programs to play Tier 2.

Not petitioning, just responding to other posts and stating my opinions.

 

18 minutes ago, The King said:

Would it matter what the levels were labeled? What if the Pens Elite and Esmark we’re labeled B and the in-house teams in WPA were labeled AAA? Would it change anything? Or would it take personal feelings like yours being changed and paradigms shifting for it to be corrected?

This doesn't make any sense haha. All I've said is that faux-AAA teams should play Tier II because it would make PAHL much more competitive and legitimize Pittsburgh's AAA landscape.

 

20 minutes ago, The King said:

Here’s another point, if parents are preyed upon, why is the onus not put on the culture to change and the parents to make good decisions?

The onus should be on parents to make good decisions, but many Western PA hockey parents are uneducated and/or misinformed. That's why we post in this forum.

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27 minutes ago, The King said:

Where do you see that? All I spoke to was my experience. No idea what anyone’s experience is except for reading someone’s previous posts and seeing that their perspective is coming from a novice point of view

Where do I see that? 90% of your posts lol.

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22 minutes ago, RegDunlop7 said:

Where do I see that? 90% of your posts lol.

Oh then yes I agree with the original comment. I wouldn’t say the only one with the requisite knowledge but one of a few. Thanks for reading though. 

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25 minutes ago, RegDunlop7 said:

Not petitioning, just responding to other posts and stating my opinions.

 

This doesn't make any sense haha. All I've said is that faux-AAA teams should play Tier II because it would make PAHL much more competitive and legitimize Pittsburgh's AAA landscape.

 

The onus should be on parents to make good decisions, but many Western PA hockey parents are uneducated and/or misinformed. That's why we post in this forum.

My post was in response to @Saucey but from what I have seen your original posts were to “enlighten” the masses as to the benefits of AA hockey and the evils of Faux AAA. As I’ve said multiple times, it’s just not that simple. 

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On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2020 at 9:16 AM, dropthepuck said:

What was nice about the Pittsburgh Hornets was the disconnect from the NHL club. True tier 1 AAA. Pens  and Friends messed up the whole environment. Would have been nice to have had Hornets intact and have the Pens develop their prep school dream team

Agreed.  It's the pens rose colored glasses that parents have that has always baffled me.  I'll look back through some of my old posts and try to find the one where some guy actually said that Mario can destroy youth hockey here is he wants, because he earned a "free pass" to do whatever he wants cause he kept the Penguins from leaving town.  That response still sticks with me today, as just a "wow" moment of just how bat sh1t crazy some people are here.

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14 hours ago, Eddie Shore said:

Agreed.  It's the pens rose colored glasses that parents have that has always baffled me.  I'll look back through some of my old posts and try to find the one where some guy actually said that Mario can destroy youth hockey here is he wants, because he earned a "free pass" to do whatever he wants cause he kept the Penguins from leaving town.  That response still sticks with me today, as just a "wow" moment of just how bat sh1t crazy some people are here.

LOL. I remember that discussion. Good times.

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